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Author Topic: Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?  (Read 4116 times)

Dan Davenport

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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2017, 08:39:07 PM »
In Arrowflight, Elves are the children of a goddess. Dwarves are the children of the same goddess, albeit via her rape at the hands of a mountain god.

Humans are weird, suspected of being either Elf/Dwarf or Elf/Demon hybrids, possessing resistance to both magic and mental trauma, and having a great capacity for both Law and Chaos.
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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2017, 09:48:54 PM »
I have that game. I rather like the look of it, though the setting building struck me as wildly offtrack for reasons I can't recall. Could never get my players to give it a spin.
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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2017, 11:34:17 AM »
The cross-breeding thing makes me think about how races are represented. Nearly all fantasy games that have such races don't mechanically allow characters that are interbred except as a single specific exception - normally half-elf.  You can't have a character who is half-dwarf, half-elf; or one-quarter dwarf, one-quarter human, and half gnome.

Point systems like GURPS and Hero in principle might allow for a spectrum of features, but even then, the fantasy games tend to say that races are all-or-nothing fixed packages. i.e. In Fantasy Hero, you can either take the elf package or the dwarf package - but it's not expected to mix-and-match, even though the underlying system allows for it.

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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2017, 12:05:02 PM »
In ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG, all races share the same 'ancestry' in the artwork, but not the writing. Without an implied setting, we took this approach to bridge the real world to the 'in-game' world. Instead of relying on traditional RPG stereotypes, we portray a multi-cultural hodgepodge of RPG fans as the races.

We literally posted about this today on Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/grimandperilous/zweihander-grim-and-perilous-rpg/posts/1820798
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Omega

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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2017, 05:07:13 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;948490
The cross-breeding thing makes me think about how races are represented. Nearly all fantasy games that have such races don't mechanically allow characters that are interbred except as a single specific exception - normally half-elf.  You can't have a character who is half-dwarf, half-elf; or one-quarter dwarf, one-quarter human, and half gnome.

AD&D has halfling/dwarves and Halfling/elves in the PHB. But they apparently arent  direct like apparently all PC half-elves are.

And this is something AD&D never seemed to explore. Half-elves and half-orcs as a stable race. I do not recall any 2nd gen half-elves or half-orcs? They all were direct offspring.

estar

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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2017, 09:58:38 AM »
Quote from: Omega;948833
AD&D has halfling/dwarves and Halfling/elves in the PHB. But they apparently arent  direct like apparently all PC half-elves are.

And this is something AD&D never seemed to explore. Half-elves and half-orcs as a stable race. I do not recall any 2nd gen half-elves or half-orcs? They all were direct offspring.


Half-elves and Half-orcs are a reference to Lord of the Rings. Half-orcs were created by Saurman in his quest to breed a better orc. Half elves are the descendants of Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril. Among them include Elrond, Arwen, and to a lesser extend Aragon (the line of Numenorian kings are descended from Elros, Elrond's brother).

Hence why they been "stable" races as that how they are presented in Tolkien. Just as the OD&D/AD&D ranger class was a thin veneer of Aragon and the Dunedain.

Christopher Brady

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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2017, 05:06:28 PM »
Quote from: estar;948883
Half-elves and Half-orcs are a reference to Lord of the Rings. Half-orcs were created by Saurman in his quest to breed a better orc. Half elves are the descendants of Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril. Among them include Elrond, Arwen, and to a lesser extend Aragon (the line of Numenorian kings are descended from Elros, Elrond's brother).

Hence why they been "stable" races as that how they are presented in Tolkien. Just as the OD&D/AD&D ranger class was a thin veneer of Aragon and the Dunedain.

Well, there are some D&D settings that state that Half-Elves breed true, as in pairing of them.  I remember something about that in 2e, but I may be incorrect there, however, in Eberron that is the case.  Same with Half-Orcs.  However, apparently, there's no such thing as 3/4s of one race or another.
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Omega

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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2017, 10:29:13 PM »
Quote from: Christopher Brady;948987
Well, there are some D&D settings that state that Half-Elves breed true, as in pairing of them.  I remember something about that in 2e, but I may be incorrect there, however, in Eberron that is the case.  Same with Half-Orcs.  However, apparently, there's no such thing as 3/4s of one race or another.

Right. By 2e there was some material scattered about allowing for the "half" races to breed true. 2e though went nuts with the "half" races. Half-ogres, half-dwarves(Mul?) and half-dragons come to mind. Then theres the Tieflings, Aasimar and Genasi from Planescape.

BX on the other hand didnt have any half-races. But BECMI did eventually.

estar

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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2017, 12:26:48 PM »
Quote from: Christopher Brady;948987
Well, there are some D&D settings that state that Half-Elves breed true, as in pairing of them.  I remember something about that in 2e, but I may be incorrect there, however, in Eberron that is the case.  Same with Half-Orcs.  However, apparently, there's no such thing as 3/4s of one race or another.


I think there was a dragon article or two that talked about this. But the main issue is the fiddliness of trying to track genetic cross breeds. It was far easier to say 3/4 is a full elf with a human ancestor, and 1/4 was a human with some elvish physical traits.

As for the original source material, what distinguished the half-elves what the ability for their descendants to choose to be considered as an elf or a human. If they choose to be human they got to live longer and healthier lives that was passed on to their children. There was a spiritual component as well. The further they drifted away from Eru and the Valar the less they benefited from the virtues of their ancestry.

Obviously after their dealing with Tolkien Enterprises/Estate Gygax and TSR couldn't emphasize this at all so it just sat there and people tried to fill the gap with ideas taken from genetics.

jhkim

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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2017, 02:08:47 PM »
Quote from: Christopher Brady;948987
Well, there are some D&D settings that state that Half-Elves breed true, as in pairing of them.  I remember something about that in 2e, but I may be incorrect there, however, in Eberron that is the case.  Same with Half-Orcs.  However, apparently, there's no such thing as 3/4s of one race or another.
Quote from: estar;949555
I think there was a dragon article or two that talked about this. But the main issue is the fiddliness of trying to track genetic cross breeds. It was far easier to say 3/4 is a full elf with a human ancestor, and 1/4 was a human with some elvish physical traits.
A few general comments:

1) D&D was indeed emulating Tolkien, but it's not like interbreeding is unique to Tolkien. It is extremely common in myth and fantasy for elves, dwarves, giants, titans, gods, demons, monsters, and others to interbreed.

2) Having two defined half-races (elf/human and orc/human) was clearly a nod to Tolkien, but a very limited one that doesn't even cover the main characters such as Aragorn - whose fractional elvish ancestry is clearly very significant in the books.

3) The simplest approach to interbreeding is to allow racial characteristics to be chosen to match the character's breeding, rather than having static packages for all possible combinations. It has a lot of parallels to class-based vs. skill-based design for profession/training. This could be easy, say, in Fantasy Hero, GURPS, or other broad point-based systems (FATE, etc.). There's nothing wrong with fixed race packages - but if one wants to have a setting where different fantasy races breed true (which is the topic from the OP), then this seems like the best way.

4) In D&D, this would obviously take changing the rules. The result would probably be something more like a point system. There have been a few of these for D&D, like those to allow playing arbitrary monsters, for example.

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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2017, 04:58:42 AM »
In Dark Albion, humans were created by elves, possibly genetically/magically engineered from more basic primates.  During the period of decadence of the late Elven civilization, they interbred with their human slaves, and thus the Cymri (the folk) who were born from those unions could use magic to overthrow their creators.

There's also some kind of implication that some dragons may have assumed human forms and interbred with humans producing some royal bloodlines (like the Tudors, most notably Henry Tudor, the Prince of Dragons).
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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2017, 08:32:12 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;949568
A few general comments:

1) D&D was indeed emulating Tolkien, but it's not like interbreeding is unique to Tolkien. It is extremely common in myth and fantasy for elves, dwarves, giants, titans, gods, demons, monsters, and others to interbreed.

2) Having two defined half-races (elf/human and orc/human) was clearly a nod to Tolkien, but a very limited one that doesn't even cover the main characters such as Aragorn - whose fractional elvish ancestry is clearly very significant in the books.

3) The simplest approach to interbreeding is to allow racial characteristics to be chosen to match the character's breeding, rather than having static packages for all possible combinations. It has a lot of parallels to class-based vs. skill-based design for profession/training. This could be easy, say, in Fantasy Hero, GURPS, or other broad point-based systems (FATE, etc.). There's nothing wrong with fixed race packages - but if one wants to have a setting where different fantasy races breed true (which is the topic from the OP), then this seems like the best way.

4) In D&D, this would obviously take changing the rules. The result would probably be something more like a point system. There have been a few of these for D&D, like those to allow playing arbitrary monsters, for example.


I give the player three options if they want to play a hybrid that's not in the books (half-elf, half-orc, half-ogre*):

1) If a human + demi-human/humanoid hybrid is similar to one already in the game, they can use that template. For example, a half-dryad would be a half-elf minus the pointy ears. A half-hobgoblin will simply be a taller half-orc with maybe greyish skin.

2) Hybrids of other demi-humans have to choose one parent or the other. A dwarf/halfling can either be a taller halfling with a thick beard, or a beardless dwarf with hairy feet.

3) All other human, humanoid and demi-human crossbreeds are considered human, maybe with some vestigial trait from a non-human parent. A pixie and a hill giant get it on? They give birth to a human kid.


I handle it this way for a few reasons. One, I'm not about to fabricate stats for every possible hybrid. Players can adapt an existing one, flip a coin and choose a parent for the PC to emulate, or just be a human with a couple of odd branches on the family tree. Two, as you point out, myths and fairy tales are chock full of stories where gods, giants, ogres, titans, fairies, dwarves, nymphs, dryads and other fanciful anthropoids bang away with humans and produce offspring -and in most cases that offspring is human. Even the offspring of gods and nymphs will be human after a generation or two.

I think of all these human-like beings as analogous to different types of wild or domesticated canines. There are a dozen or so types of wolves, jackals, coyotes and wild dogs. While at first they might seem very different, in fact their DNA is almost identical and they will readily interbreed with each other (and domestic dogs), producing fertile offspring. After a few generations, these mixed-breed dogs start resembling something like the dingo or pariah dog or tropical wolves, only with some signs of mingling between types. For example, in some populations of gray wolf there are some with solid black fur. This turns out to be the result of breeding with domestic dogs, as are piebald patterns that pop up in dingoes, jackals and other canids. As George Carlin used to say, this is the kind of thing I think about when I'm home alone at night during a storm and the power goes out.

In other words, all the humanoids are basically humans that have been molded by some combination of evolution, magic or selective breeding by more powerful beings.

* I added the half-ogre from Dragon Magazine.
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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2017, 09:30:08 AM »
Elves are the survivors of an ancient transhuman starfaring civilization, who would scoff at the idea that they come from human stock, and probably believe that humans are the degenerate descendants of their storied, long-dead empire.

Dwarves, once a slave-race bred to withstand the gravity, pressure, toxicity and radiation of deep-earth mining operations, are only dimly aware of their origins as thralls to the ancient elven star-empire; but aware enough to cultivate millennia of enmity.

Humans, though genetic progenitors to all of these races, tend to be seen as the young interlopers, as their own climb out of primitivism and back to civilization was longer and more difficult.

Orcs are uplifted humanoid boars bred as infantry for the elven empire. Same with Minotaurs and bulls, Gnolls and hyenas, the elves were on a big Dr. Moreau kick after their empire collapsed. Chimeras were probably just a bunch of undergrads fucking around, though.

Goblins are ancient enemies to the elves, having been the original inhabitants of Arcadia, the legendary capital and crown jewel to their star-empire. Hobgoblins and bugbears are also byproducts of elven bio-sorcerous meddling.

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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2017, 10:47:49 AM »
Quote from: Omega;948833
AD&D has halfling/dwarves and Halfling/elves in the PHB.

[citation needed]
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Humans, demihumans and humanoids sharing ancestry?
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2017, 02:35:27 PM »
Quote from: Black Vulmea;957537
[citation needed]

PHB specifically says the two types of halflings have respectively elven and dwarven blood in them meaning that halflings are getting it on with elves and dwarves. Not necessarily recently. But it is happening.

Or maybee it means halflings are all vampires and... :eek:

That would make for a fucked up setting. Stouts and Tallfellows have to drink the blood of the respective race to maintain their bonuses.