Quote from: Headless;1033716So I think we all agree that a full on bait and switch is a shit move.  But how do you go to OZ?  Or discover you are a shadow walking Prince of Amber.  Or follow the wizard in to Finavar?  Or walk the Glory Road with the Empress of the multiverse.  

How do you show the players the wider universe beyond their tiny corner so that they are surprised but don't feel cheeted or mislead.

Therein lies the problem. And a really good (as determined by their players, who have significant trust in them) GM might want to do something like this. OTOH, to allow anyone to have any faith in said GM, they probably should have refrained from what I'll call 'trivial bait and switch's such as saying you're going to play one system, and then switch to another next session.

Quote from: Headless;1033716So I think we all agree that a full on bait and switch is a shit move.  But how do you go to OZ?  Or discover you are a shadow walking Prince of Amber.  Or follow the wizard in to Finavar?  Or walk the Glory Road with the Empress of the multiverse.  

How do you show the players the wider universe beyond their tiny corner so that they are surprised but don't feel cheeted or mislead.

I think that the best and obvious place to start would be to ask them if they are interested in seeing this "wider universe".

Quote from: Headless;1033716So I think we all agree that a full on bait and switch is a shit move.  But how do you go to OZ?  Or discover you are a shadow walking Prince of Amber.  Or follow the wizard in to Finavar?  Or walk the Glory Road with the Empress of the multiverse.  

How do you show the players the wider universe beyond their tiny corner so that they are surprised but don't feel cheeted or mislead.

Those are the oddball cases where you might want to present the game as otherwise. But you arent changing systems. Or shouldnt be. Best example is Metamorphosis Alpha. The DM can run it as a standard post apoc setting till the big reveal. But even after its still MA rules. There are a couple of RPGs from the 90s that had that as an underlying theme. That the world the PCs were in, was not really what they thought. This well predates the Matrix and ExisteZe by many years. And even longer in literature.

Thats a "big reveal" not a bait-n-switch.

Some examples might be say Spelljammer where you transition from dungeoncrawling to planet hopping. Planescape where you transition to the weirdness of the higher planes. (which sadly came across as kinda mundane...) Or MA where you transition from post-apoc ruincrawling to "Holy Fuck we are on a space ship and it is out of control! WTF do we do!?!?!?!"

Or say Call of Cthulhu which can start off as pretty mundane. But sooner or later transitions into sanity blasting cosmic horror. End Times transitions from struggling Mars colony cut off from earth. To ever increasing encounters with the local cosmic horrors.

Quote from: jeff37923;1032962How would you react if you were the player in this situation?

Is the DM good and the other players fun?

Then I call out the bullshit bait & switch, squeeze an apology/explanation out of the GM (for the other players mostly) and then discuss what this other campaign might be. If the other campaign is good stuff, then I'll go with it.

BUT...at this point, I'm in magic pony land.

In reality, the bait & switch DM is probably either an asshat or a moron, the other players are pissed off (or so pathetic they're thankful for anything), and the "I'll happily run THIS campaign" is actually a creepy GMPC wankfest with convoluted homebrew rules that make 3e look fun by comparison in a crapass faux-LotR setting that makes Shannara look like Shakespeare.

I've never encountered a bait & switch that wasn't bait & shit.

Bait & Switch is a horrible idea.

The scenario in the OP would be off putting in the extreme. Its explicitly lying to the Players for no good reasons. If you wanted to run something else, advertise for that. It sounds like a pretty by the book "Bait and Switch" in the strict sense: advertise one thing to get them in and give another with no warning.

But I've seen the phrase used to describe more hazy situations. The module "Expedition to the Barrier peaks" (I think that's what it was called, an older D and D advnture with sci-fi elements) has been called a Bait and Switch as have revelation about a campaign that weren't obvious up front: like supernatural elements exist in a modern adventure setting.

I've been in games were there were twists. "Modern characters cast into a fantasy or high tech world" but they were either with an established group with allot of trust built up or set up such so characters were useful even as fish out of water. Or were temporary twist in an ongoing setting, sometimes brought about by PC actions. "You had to press shiny red button on the Interdimensional Thingamajig, didn't you?" Its a matter of context and cause but it a subject best handled delicately.

Some people enjoy suprises, others react badly to anything but what was 'written on the label" occuring in a game. Twists in games work best when, like in other entertainment, they seem coherent and consistent not just pulled out of thin air.

But like many things, bad idea or not can depend on your skill and execution. I've  really enjoyed some things I wouldn't have if they done by a less talented person/gm.

man, I wish I'd read this thread years ago before I did my Stargate SG-1 game (that turned out to be a one shot...
I thought it made sense in the lore of the setting, PCs are part of the Stargate command, and explore other worlds, since SGC doesn't use a Dial Home Device, they can dial worlds that DHDs can't.  The dialing computer glitches the address they intend to try, but the new address connected.  The PCs end up in a swamp type environment. there is no solid ground, all landmasses, such as they are, are all large clumps of plants thet have grown together around the gate and its DHD (which are on something that floats, but they aren't sure what).
Soon the natives, humans modified to be able to live underwater come along and welcome the visitors, they have legends of others coming through the gate, but this is the first time anyone has ever seen a visitor.  Locals are friendly, almost too friendly, and don't really want the PCs to leave, but are excited at the idea of going with.
Eventually the PCs ask what the locals call their home world.  R'lyeh is the answer.

Quote from: remial;1034476man, I wish I'd read this thread years ago before I did my Stargate SG-1 game (that turned out to be a one shot...
I thought it made sense in the lore of the setting, PCs are part of the Stargate command, and explore other worlds, since SGC doesn't use a Dial Home Device, they can dial worlds that DHDs can't.  The dialing computer glitches the address they intend to try, but the new address connected.  The PCs end up in a swamp type environment. there is no solid ground, all landmasses, such as they are, are all large clumps of plants thet have grown together around the gate and its DHD (which are on something that floats, but they aren't sure what).
Soon the natives, humans modified to be able to live underwater come along and welcome the visitors, they have legends of others coming through the gate, but this is the first time anyone has ever seen a visitor.  Locals are friendly, almost too friendly, and don't really want the PCs to leave, but are excited at the idea of going with.
Eventually the PCs ask what the locals call their home world.  R'lyeh is the answer.

Your idea wouldn't have bothered most of the people I am with at all unless you completely changed the setting to focus solely on the Mythos, rewriting the overall Stargate SG-1 setting to fit and not the other way around (which I get the impression is what you did) and possibly not even then. Some of them would have gotten a kick out of it. Personally, I don't put crossover and homages under "Bait and Switch".

The only misstep you may have made is using this as the first scenario in your game,IMO

Yeah, to me remial's game is not a Bait-And-Switch as much as it is a nice new twist on an ancient trope.

Quote from: remial;1034476man, I wish I'd read this thread years ago before I did my Stargate SG-1 game (that turned out to be a one shot...
I thought it made sense in the lore of the setting, PCs are part of the Stargate command, and explore other worlds, since SGC doesn't use a Dial Home Device, they can dial worlds that DHDs can't.  The dialing computer glitches the address they intend to try, but the new address connected.  The PCs end up in a swamp type environment. there is no solid ground, all landmasses, such as they are, are all large clumps of plants thet have grown together around the gate and its DHD (which are on something that floats, but they aren't sure what).
Soon the natives, humans modified to be able to live underwater come along and welcome the visitors, they have legends of others coming through the gate, but this is the first time anyone has ever seen a visitor.  Locals are friendly, almost too friendly, and don't really want the PCs to leave, but are excited at the idea of going with.
Eventually the PCs ask what the locals call their home world.  R'lyeh is the answer.

Quote from: CarlD.;1034480Your idea wouldn't have bothered most of the people I am with at all unless you completely changed the setting to focus solely on the Mythos, rewriting the overall Stargate SG-1 setting to fit and not the other way around (which I get the impression is what you did) and possibly not even then. Some of them would have gotten a kick out of it. Personally, I don't put crossover and homages under "Bait and Switch".

The only misstep you may have made is using this as the first scenario in your game,IMO

Quote from: jeff37923;1034488Yeah, to me remial's game is not a Bait-And-Switch as much as it is a nice new twist on an ancient trope.

1. As long as the PCs remain game-viable in the new context, sure.
2. For the main set-up (SG-1), this should be one of many worlds the campaign explores, rather than using the main set-up to get the PCs to the setting the GM wanted all along.

Quote from: jeff37923;1032962...and then during the first session tell the group that this was going to be the only D&D session...

I would have been packed up and at least half a mile away before he finished explaining.

I would be really pissed off if I was lured into one game for the purpose of playing another. Now, if the GM played a full campaign and then said, "I'm thinking of switching to a different system, anyone on-board?" I would probably give it a shot.