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Author Topic: How To Play Narrative Games If You Are An Immersionist  (Read 3297 times)

JesterRaiin

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« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2016, 08:44:28 AM »
Quote from: AsenRG;884521
"Making a  boring character" is generally accepted among Fate players.


As in "purposefully boring", or so it happens, that FATErs simply don't put much into their characters?

Quote from: Nexus;884525
I don't "get" FATE at all.


As far as I can tell, FATE CORE is one of worst RPG book ever written.

How about FATE Accelerated? Or one of games using FATE's mechanics?
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Nexus

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« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2016, 08:56:15 AM »
Quote from: JesterRaiin;884534


How about FATE Accelerated? Or one of games using FATE's mechanics?


I haven't really looked much more into the game since it left me scratching my head. It seems pretty popular though.
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JesterRaiin

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« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2016, 09:17:58 AM »
Quote from: Nexus;884536
I haven't really looked much more into the game since it left me scratching my head. It seems pretty popular though.


I'd actually suggest at least reading FATE Accelerated. It features 140% less "uhhhh, just... uhhhh, ummm, you know... just agree how it's supposed to... you know, uhhhhh, run, youknowwhatImsaying, ayyy... uhhh...." confusing bullshit, omnipresent in FATE Core. It's also different in a few ways. For example, there are quasi-Attributes in form of Approaches, that allow you to quickly determine the way you get the shit done.

As for derivatives, I find them the better way to learn FATE. Much better.

For example, The Demolished Ones - a crossbreed between The Dark City movie and Amnesia video game. I had fun playing it.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 09:38:04 AM by JesterRaiin »
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crkrueger

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« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2016, 10:20:46 AM »
Quote from: Nexus;884533
Any of it. How it supposed to work over all, the design intention, etc. It just doesn't click mentally. Which isn't to say its objectively bad.


Don't bother.  You're not missing anything, it just isn't for you, and you're not alone.  None of us will probably ever play even a third of all RPGs that have been created, so fuck it.
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JesterRaiin

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« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2016, 11:28:11 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;884551
Don't bother.  You're not missing anything, it just isn't for you, and you're not alone.  None of us will probably ever play even a third of all RPGs that have been created, so fuck it.


Objection! Good half of RPGs are variations of d20 BUT WITH NO ALIGNMENT TREE AND ADDITIONAL "VS" THROWS! KA-BLOOOEY! :D
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 02:41:35 PM by JesterRaiin »
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Madprofessor

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« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2016, 02:19:24 PM »
Quote
Originally Posted by PGGPundit
Mostly one just shouldn't.


This is where I am at.

I tried FATE.  Gave it a real shot when a player said "hey, there is a whole new approach to roleplaying."  By the second session we were stripping out all the wonkyness that broke immersion.  By the fourth session we had nothing but character aspects and a clunky skill system.  FATE is playable as an immersionist game, but there tons of better options just waiting to played.  If you are an "immersionist," why bother?  

This doesn't mean that FATE is crap, its just piss poor at getting me and my players where we want to go. I am happy to just ignore it.

AsenRG

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« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2016, 07:35:22 PM »
Quote from: JesterRaiin;884534
As in "purposefully boring", or so it happens, that FATErs simply don't put much into their characters?

As in "you just made a 5-buttons game into a 1-button game and now all that you have to do is keep pushing that button". If your Aspect X is wide enough to cover everything, it means you'd be doing the same thing over and over again 90% of the time. That just makes the game boring for everyone.
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JesterRaiin

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« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2016, 11:55:01 AM »
Quote from: AsenRG;884848
As in "you just made a 5-buttons game into a 1-button game and now all that you have to do is keep pushing that button". If your Aspect X is wide enough to cover everything, it means you'd be doing the same thing over and over again 90% of the time. That just makes the game boring for everyone.


I see. It's exactly what I had in mind.

I find it a serious problem for all those modern games relying on "just invent some shit" approach, and 'm honestly surprised that people rarely touch the subject when they discuss how awesome FATE (or similar games) are & shit.

Side note:
Around here it's often called "a cook's exploit" - one GM had a player who invested everything he could into "cooking" skill and later insisted on bonus, because "ruling and cooking have plenty of stuff in common", "a good cook must know plenty about poisons", "a frying pan is a multipurpose weapon" and so on and so forth. I'm not sure what system that was, but the more vague, the more "a cook's exploit" is applicable.
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Nexus

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« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2016, 01:29:11 PM »
Quote from: JesterRaiin;884955
I see. It's exactly what I had in mind.

I find it a serious problem for all those modern games relying on "just invent some shit" approach, and 'm honestly surprised that people rarely touch the subject when they discuss how awesome FATE (or similar games) are & shit.

Side note:
Around here it's often called "a cook's exploit" - one GM had a player who invested everything he could into "cooking" skill and later insisted on bonus, because "ruling and cooking have plenty of stuff in common", "a good cook must know plenty about poisons", "a frying pan is a multipurpose weapon" and so on and so forth. I'm not sure what system that was, but the more vague, the more "a cook's exploit" is applicable.


Marvel Heroic Role play had a similar feel for, particularly Distinctions.
Remember when Illinois Nazis where a joke in the Blue Brothers movie?

Democracy, meh? (538)

 "The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn’t even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it."

JesterRaiin

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« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2016, 01:47:28 PM »
Quote from: Nexus;884968
Marvel Heroic Role play had a similar feel for, particularly Distinctions.


Are you referring to Marvel Superheroes/Marvel Superheroes Advanced by TSR? I know the game exists, but I'm not familiar with its ruleset.

That aside: yep, I'm 140% convinced that all what the "New Wave" of RPG have to offer isn't that new. Merely a borrowed concepts reskinned & retouched.
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Nexus

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« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2016, 07:24:54 PM »
Quote from: JesterRaiin;884971
Are you referring to Marvel Superheroes/Marvel Superheroes Advanced by TSR? I know the game exists, but I'm not familiar with its ruleset.

That aside: yep, I'm 140% convinced that all what the "New Wave" of RPG have to offer isn't that new. Merely a borrowed concepts reskinned & retouched.


The recent Marvel Heroic Role playing by Maragret Weis Productions.
Remember when Illinois Nazis where a joke in the Blue Brothers movie?

Democracy, meh? (538)

 "The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn’t even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it."

AsenRG

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« Reply #71 on: March 14, 2016, 05:17:57 AM »
Quote from: JesterRaiin;884955
I see. It's exactly what I had in mind.

I find it a serious problem for all those modern games relying on "just invent some shit" approach, and 'm honestly surprised that people rarely touch the subject when they discuss how awesome FATE (or similar games) are & shit.

Side note:
Around here it's often called "a cook's exploit" - one GM had a player who invested everything he could into "cooking" skill and later insisted on bonus, because "ruling and cooking have plenty of stuff in common", "a good cook must know plenty about poisons", "a frying pan is a multipurpose weapon" and so on and so forth. I'm not sure what system that was, but the more vague, the more "a cook's exploit" is applicable.

Usually,people that play Fate don't consider this a system problem. it's a player problem, since the system explicitly tells you not to do that.
And since you're making it boring for yourself, too, you're even punished in advance and it's only a problem because it bores the other players.
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Itachi

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« Reply #72 on: March 14, 2016, 07:50:47 AM »
I agree with the sentiment about Fate. We gave it a fair shot but it's never sang for us. (and I talk that as an enthusiast of the "new wave")

AsenRG, what Fate game do you think is the best representative of the engine, and that could show it's strengths more clearly ?

JesterRaiin

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« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2016, 09:05:00 AM »
Quote from: AsenRG;885058
Usually,people that play Fate don't consider this a system problem. it's a player problem, since the system explicitly tells you not to do that.


I couldn't tell. FATE Core features one of worst, dullest corebooks I've the displeasure to read, and to this day I'm not  what it was about. :confused:

I think it's actually the problem of all those critically acclaimed New Wave games in general - if there's a skilled veteran player/GM who might teach you about ropes, then it's all fine and dandy, yay, hooray, we new wave now. But if you attempt to learn the game on your own, it's a disaster, total confusion and wtf every other page.

Quote from: AsenRG;885058

And since you're making it boring for yourself, too, you're even punished in advance and it's only a problem because it bores the other players.


I see.

I remember that back in old times, we had truckload of PCs/NPCs for Call of Cthulhu, each possessing at least a few non-canon abilities like "singing old Russian songs while completely drunk: 4%". They cost nothing, they gave no tactical advantage, they added helluva flavor to otherwise boring characters.

We used this in FATE-based games too, our GM allowed extra Aspect-like... what's the English word for that... Quirks (?) that acted only as plot device and couldn't lead to any serious trouble. For example, mine was "Beer hipster", and it allowed my character to either become recognized as true beer-connoisseur, but also my GM used it against me a few times, and it led to some NPCs perceive my character as pompous fuck.

Funny thing is that I'm guilty of both, IRL. ;)

Quote from: Itachi;885070
AsenRG, what Fate game do you think is the best representative of the engine, and that could show it's strengths more clearly ?


If I may...

I'd suggest BULLDOGS! The game itself resembles those old 80-90s animated lighthearted comedy-SF/Space Western tv shows, where bunch of ruffians travel the cosmos, meet with weird animal-like species (long before furrydom became a thing), solve some mysteries or do other galaxy-shit. Galaxy Rangers, Brave Starr, perhaps even modern shows like Futurama... You now the drill.

I find it a good way to learn FATE, because it uses Aspects all the time in such a way that you embrace them intuitively. Effectively, you know what they are long before you find yourself on a page where they are actually explained. It's also well written (IMHO) and features quite clever vehicle (starship) building process.

Side note: BULLDOGS! RPG was updated to newest version of FATE and re-released lately, but I don't know that edition. I'm talking about the earlier one, with such a cover:

« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 03:43:43 AM by JesterRaiin »
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« Reply #74 on: March 14, 2016, 07:02:20 PM »
Quote from: Nexus;884525
I don't "get" FATE at all.

Me neither. Don't sweat it.
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