Quote from: AsenRG;883154Yeah, that's what Fudge does,or at least the versions I am familiar with. It's part of the inspiration for this thread,  actually.
In fact, FUDGE was meant as a light system to facilitate immersion.

It might be me rather than Steffan O'Sullivan's fault, but when I looked at FUDGE somewhere between 10 and 20 years ago it seemed pretty heavy. Whereas I could easily pick up Hero System or GURPS and quickly get a game going, I just got bogged down in the FUDGE text.

I thought FATE might help me out, but it turned me off by piling on Aspects and such.

Maybe I'll give FUDGE another try, see whether it clicks with my brain this time.

Quote from: Phillip;883236It might be me rather than Steffan O'Sullivan's fault, but when I looked at FUDGE somewhere between 10 and 20 years ago it seemed pretty heavy. Whereas I could easily pick up Hero System or GURPS and quickly get a game going, I just got bogged down in the FUDGE text.

I thought FATE might help me out, but it turned me off by piling on Aspects and such.

Maybe I'll give FUDGE another try, see whether it clicks with my brain this time.

There are different variants of FUDGE. The ones I'm familiar with  are much, much lighter than GURPS, maybe on par with Mongoose Traveller without the lifepaths and setting info:).
The 5-point FUDGE rules might help;).

Yeah, the original FUDGE was less a game as a way to make a game.

I don't know if this has been covered, but it seems to me the easiest way to turn a highly abstract meta-game mechanic into an In-Character mechanic is simply to literalize it.

Make the characters aware of it. Make it a matter of physics in the game world.

In both the game I'm running right now (a space opera) and a post-apocalyptic game I ran a few years back, the system has an abstract mechanic for "success points" which can be added to various rolls, but unlike persistent bonuses, run out.

Some character advantages give a regenerating "pool" of points, and so-on.

I just made them literal treasure. You can find success points in a haul. Slain enemies can drop them, etc.

This requires a somewhat weird cosmology, but not an especially weird one by RPG standards.

I've also noted that having things like Level, Alignment, and Class be explicit, in-world concepts which the characters are aware of doesn't bother me as much as I'd have thought it would years ago. We class people by level of skill all the time (I was a Specialist in the Infantry, I'm a Vice President at my current job, etc.). We also self-identify with groups that have a moral valence (political party or political affiliation), and so-on.

I have noticed that -- for some reason -- I avoid literalizing hitpoints... but in theory there's no reason you couldn't.

None of this helps make less traditional RPG models work for me; I'm in the "why would I play that?" camp.

But if a game is a purely traditional RPG that just has a highly abstract mechanic like Fate Points? Just use it in a world where the characters are aware that Fate Points exist and know how to use them.

Cheers,
-E.

Well, that is too literal for me:). But if it works for you, that's fine!
Personally, I prefer calling on resources to be in your mind only, so GUMSHOE protagonists literally are running out of tricks to use;).

Quote from: -E.;883566I don't know if this has been covered, but it seems to me the easiest way to turn a highly abstract meta-game mechanic into an In-Character mechanic is simply to literalize it.

I was thinking about that yesterday, in the context of a dungeon game in which the underworld is specifically a domain like the Celtic otherworld. For game purposes, I think I might like to have frangible points that one can use for various things. However, instead of (or in addition to) having them as found loot I would like to award them along the lines of per-session experience points.

One thing that occurred to me was to have Judges in the Underworld itself, sort of like the beings that in some accounts greet entrants to Lovecraft's Dreamlands. These would appear at the exit -- where/whenever that may be, time and space being malleable from their perspective -- to give explicit boons that are quantifiable ("so many uses") to character as well as player. They might perform other functions as well, viewing the characters' adventures rather as part game and part story in their own uncanny frame of reference.

QuoteBut if a game is a purely traditional RPG that just has a highly abstract mechanic like Fate Points? Just use it in a world where the characters are aware that Fate Points exist and know how to use them.

That's how the points in Gygax's Dangerous Journeys seemed to me, just part of the understanding of people in a world in which magic is as real and measurable as electricity -- and in some forms available to everyone, even if not professional magicians learned in formal spell casting.

I can immerse with a pile of twigs if you'll let me and have always been able to keep two minds about these things. That said some things help or hinder more than others, and I slightly prefer in the moment play to out of the moment.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;880415I'm suffering from terrible hangover today and I have trouble forming even simplest sentences, so no useful input here, but I really wanted to comment on this.

That's the sperrut! {drink *BLEEECH*}... what arwe talking about?

Quote from: Nexus;880456I feel the same way about social mechanics. We're not really consciously in control of everything we do and decide. I've been talked into some amazingly stupid shit in the past and made really poor choices. So I can see my character doing some that are "out of my control."

I think it's the whole "in the player's control but not their character's" and "doing the bad thing to get the good thing" that throws people. Finding mechanics which address these in ways that help achieve 'immersion' yet avoid disrupting it once achieved is still an open problem.

Quote from: CRKrueger;880477When I'm roleplaying and everything seems to be meshing, all cylinders are firing, I really get into the character's headspace, and I can and do surprise myself.  Get caught up in the moment, make decisions I regret, follow my gut, head, or heart when I should have following the other.

When you're really caught up in the character, you don't need those mechanics and die rolls, because if you're really immersed in that character, you do that anyway.  When I really grok that character, you ask me "blond, brunette or redhead" or "fish or chicken", I know.  It just pops into my head.

That's why having as little between me and the character is so important.  If these mechanics would just leave me alone I can get into that zone of suspension of disbelief where the real magic of roleplaying is, but these types of mechanics keep pulling on my shoulder and saying, "Hey, let me help you roleplay your character." or "Hey, let's do something dramatic and exciting, eh, wouldn't that make a great story?"

Great summary. Also see my replies to AsenRG.

All I need are a few strong impressions and I'm good to go, so any system beyond that is entirely unnecessary (or worse disruptive) because success and failure are irrelevant to my immersion in character. I mean I intend to succeed, but the actual outcome has no impact on maintaining my immersion. This is also why I don't grok Fiasco, because once you take me out of the moment there's no reason for me to prefer black or white dice, because it'll be cool either way.

Quote from: AsenRG;880869At least my current theory is that it comes down to familiarity first, how well it maps to previous experiences second, and your specific way of thinking in the third place.

Anything that avoids engaging conscious consideration.

Quote from: AsenRG;880869Do you believe in karma? Than a karma-based system might work better for you (based on my observations here, amusingly). Do you believe that every bad thing is followed by a good one? Fate compels might be intuitive. Do you believe that the universe is random, and everything else is an illusion? Dice rolls. Do you believe that the Hand of Higher Powers deals us cards at birth? Well, card-using systems aren't unheard of. Do you believe that the universe is basically arbitrary, but we can make it care by sufficient force of will? Play Pendragon.

This is the most concise set of examples for what I've been trying to get across when I say we don't share the same reality even in real life, and assuming we do only ends up being disruptive and generating unnecessary hostility.

Quote from: AsenRG;880869do you believe that things often have unintuitive consequences? That you can win by losing, attack by retreating, strike left by moving to the right? Do you believe you can create hate by kindness, murder through charity, mayhem through order?

Some games mechanically account for the character believing those things and feature play which is at least partly about validating those beliefs. Those games are also the ones which tend to provide immediately useful character impressions I can run with (though some like Burning Wheel put up a giant wall afterwards), as opposed to most others which just provide a bunch of statistical performance data and leave me wondering "Who is this?".

Quote from: AsenRG;880869the cornerstone of my theory is that it's about finding a game that fits you as closely as possible.

Forge theory was about exactly the same thing. My theory on the other hand is that RPGs are thin at one end, much much thicker in the middle, and then thin again at the far end.

Quote from: RPGPundit;882614Also, FATE is actually fucking easy to play as a totally standard and Immersive game.  Just take out the storygamey parts that make it suck. You're left with a fine game for certain genres.

Extracting the 'storygame' from Fate is a rather more serious surgical procedure than you're implying here.

#BadDoctor

Quote from: RPGPundit;883139you can keep the FATE points and the aspects, just use them in a way that isn't storygamey.

You can't because of how Tagging works, which Fate requires you to build up through 'deliberate' failure in order to have enough to spend (typically all at once) to succeed at the finale. Marvel Heroic Roleplaying has this problem too, but defines the character through action much more than through the choices made before it, which I can't express much better and makes a difference for me in play.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;883794All I need are a few strong impressions and I'm good to go, so any system beyond that is entirely unnecessary (or worse disruptive) because success and failure are irrelevant to my immersion in character. I mean I intend to succeed, but the actual outcome has no impact on maintaining my immersion. This is also why I don't grok Fiasco, because once you take me out of the moment there's no reason for me to prefer black or white dice, because it'll be cool either way.

Yeah, I don't understand Fiasco and Polaris for much the same reason.

QuoteAnything that avoids engaging conscious consideration.

I call it "familiar" when you don't need to think about doing it:).

QuoteThis is the most concise set of examples for what I've been trying to get across when I say we don't share the same reality even in real life, and assuming we do only ends up being disruptive and generating unnecessary hostility.

Yeah, that was my point. And I can totally relate to the hostility part;).

QuoteSome games mechanically account for the character believing those things and feature play which is at least partly about validating those beliefs. Those games are also the ones which tend to provide immediately useful character impressions I can run with (though some like Burning Wheel put up a giant wall afterwards), as opposed to most others which just provide a bunch of statistical performance data and leave me wondering "Who is this?".

Indeed.

QuoteForge theory was about exactly the same thing. My theory on the other hand is that RPGs are thin at one end, much much thicker in the middle, and then thin again at the far end.

My theory says RPGs are like sandwiches. To get to the meat of it, you have to eat the bread, too:D!

QuoteExtracting the 'storygame' from Fate is a rather more serious surgical procedure than you're implying here.

#BadDoctor

Not nearly as hard as you think.

QuoteYou can't because of how Tagging works, which Fate requires you to build up through 'deliberate' failure in order to have enough to spend (typically all at once) to succeed at the finale.

You mean compelling?
The usual procedure is to get the GM to determine when you've acted according to an Aspect, so you wouldn't need to think about it.

QuoteMarvel Heroic Roleplaying has this problem too, but defines the character through action much more than through the choices made before it, which I can't express much better and makes a difference for me in play.

No experience with MHR, and frankly, no desire to try it.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Anon Adderlan
Extracting the 'storygame' from Fate is a rather more serious surgical procedure than you're implying here.

I dunno.  It wasn't too hard for us.  We decided to give Fate a real try.  It didn't take us long to realize that having aspects for objects, places or events was really lame (for us), as was the whole concepts of tagging, zones, scenes, etc.  After that, character invokes, compels, skills and stunts played much like a traditional game - not a great one, but playable.  It wasn't surgery, it was just really clear what seemed forced and unnatural.  We couldn't help but just shrug and ignore those features.

It isn't difficult to extract the storygame from FATE, because FATE is primarily an RPG.  I've done it twice already, it was damn easy. Just don't use the storygamey parts of the Fate Point mechanic. That's it, for the most part.  Depending on which game you're playing, you might need to ignore some of the 'literary' details of character creation or collective world-building bullshit.

Out of curiosity: what's the general name for "my aspect/ability/etc is vague enough to serve me in pretty much every situation there is" exploit?

Quote from: JesterRaiin;884495Out of curiosity: what's the general name for "my aspect/ability/etc is vague enough to serve me in pretty much every situation there is" exploit?

"Making a  boring character" is generally accepted among Fate players.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;884495Out of curiosity: what's the general name for "my aspect/ability/etc is vague enough to serve me in pretty much every situation there is" exploit?

I don't "get" FATE at all.

Quote from: Nexus;884525I don't "get" FATE at all.

What don't you get?

If you are talking about aspects, it is a description of something within the setting. For example Batman's Gotham has an aspect of being a dark and gritty city. Aspect can be general description like the above. Or very specific like this X-Racer has an aspect of having a turbo charged Z-8 engine. In general only the stuff that make something stands out or makes different get described as an aspect.

Aspects can give you a bonus if they help your character in a particular situation. This is generally taken as a +2 modifier to the dice roll. It can be a re-roll as well. If it complicates what you are trying to do you could get a Fate Point to be used later. That part is what many consider to be storygamish.

Another storygamish mechanic is that players can "invoke" an aspect by spending a Fate Point, describing how it benefits them, which gets them the +2 or the re-roll. However a Fate referee can ignore this and just adjudicate the traditional way by deciding what the player is doing benefited by the aspect and thus grants him the bonus to his character for invoking it.

Then there is of course the Fate/Fudge Dice. It is for d6s marked with two pluses, two blanks, and two minuses. The plus reads as +1, the blank 0, and the minus as -1. You roll all four and add them together which gets you a number from -4 to +4.

You add to that the relevant skill/attribute and that tells you how well you succeeded or failed. In general you are shooting to roll a +1 or higher.

The main issues with this is that is very coarse when it comes to modifiers. A +1 improvement is a big big deal. In a opposed roll +1 can change it from a 50-50 outcome to a 65-35 outcome. Far greater than what would happen with a +1 with 2d6 or 3d6.

Other than that it is very straight forward to use.

Character generally have a single set of attributes/skills.  For example Fate Freeport has Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha. All rated as a number for example Strength -1, Intelligence +2. In contrast Starblazer has nothing but skills. So does Fate Core.

What confuses many is that the skill/attribute system is totally freeform. So you can make it whatever you think makes sense for your campaign.

Quote from: estar;884531What don't you get?

Any of it. How it supposed to work over all, the design intention, etc. It just doesn't click mentally. Which isn't to say its objectively bad.