Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 09, 2020, 05:08:49 AM
I thought OSR was all about avoiding fights to get gold because the combat was ultra dangerous.

Myth. People were killing monsters and taking their stuff since day 1. You just gotta be smart about it.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 09, 2020, 05:08:49 AM
I thought OSR was all about avoiding fights to get gold because the combat was ultra dangerous.

This depends on a whole host of factors; if you have 8th level PCs in a 4th level dungeon certainly they can likely wade through the enemy - XP probably won't be great but can still be fun. If the PCs have access to Raise Dead then more force on force play also becomes more viable.

After 1st level (maybe 3rd level) OD&D combat is not *inherently* ultra dangerous. 'Delving too deep' or other risky activity can be, of course.

To second what S'mon said - in OSR there are rounds and turns. Rounds (Short, usually 10 seconds or so, but sometimes longer) are for combat actions. Turns (10 mins, usually) are for non-combat where time is important. Learning when to switch between these 2 is an important skill.

In terms of boredom - if fights are going on too long - are you rolling for monsters morale? That can cut short a long fight quickly. Similarly, if people are roleplaying every last interaction with a merchant, feel free to cut it short and ask for a roll/say bartering is over, cost is Xgp, take it or leave it. You are the GM, putting on your Viking hat is allowed occasionally, especially to alleviate boredom!

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 09, 2020, 05:08:49 AM
I thought OSR was all about avoiding fights to get gold because the combat was ultra dangerous.

In my experience, it's about having options. For example, it should be possible to steamroll right through the barricaded/guarded front door, but that would be high risk and likely end up wasting a ton of resources (life, hit points, spells, etc). It should also be possible for a smart group to do some recon with stealth, spells, etc to discover a sneaky way to avoid that resource-draining route. Maybe they find another entrance, maybe they charm a guard, maybe they disguise themselves somehow. Fighting through the heavily-protected front door is the sucker's route.  /shrug

Yeah, exactly.  There's a difference between rewarding/encouraging a style of play and mandating it.

Good Players often don't have to frontally assault everything

No player is never going to frontally assault anything

Quote from: S'mon on October 09, 2020, 06:37:37 AMThis depends on a whole host of factors; if you have 8th level PCs in a 4th level dungeon certainly they can likely wade through the enemy - XP probably won't be great but can still be fun.

Wading through the 4th dungeon level could be very dangerous. For the 4th level of the dungeon, the OD&D random monster table gives a 1/6 chance of an opponents of ~ 4th - 6th level, 1/3 chance of an opponents of ~ 6th or 7th level, 1/3 chance of an opponents of 8th or 9th level, and a 1/6 chance of an opponents of 10th or 11th level or higher so a 50% chance that the opponent you meet is at least your level.


DM: I know what you're thinking. 'Did he roll a six on the Wandering Monster table or did he only roll a one. Well to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I kind of lost track myself. But being that this is the 4th level of the dungeon and monster on the sixth table would tear your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?'

Well do ya, punk?

Quote from: Bren on October 09, 2020, 02:46:12 PM

Quote from: S'mon on October 09, 2020, 06:37:37 AMThis depends on a whole host of factors; if you have 8th level PCs in a 4th level dungeon certainly they can likely wade through the enemy - XP probably won't be great but can still be fun.

Wading through the 4th dungeon level could be very dangerous. For the 4th level of the dungeon, the OD&D random monster table gives a 1/6 chance of an opponents of ~ 4th - 6th level, 1/3 chance of an opponents of ~ 6th or 7th level, 1/3 chance of an opponents of 8th or 9th level, and a 1/6 chance of an opponents of 10th or 11th level or higher so a 50% chance that the opponent you meet is at least your level.


DM: I know what you're thinking. 'Did he roll a six on the Wandering Monster table or did he only roll a one. Well to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I kind of lost track myself. But being that this is the 4th level of the dungeon and monster on the sixth table would tear your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?'

Well do ya, punk?

I'm only really familiar with the 1e DMG system - reduced numbers of high level monsters on upper dungeon levels make the risk fairly manageable for mid-high parties if they are of the envisaged size I think, anything like the 9-member NPC parties.

Quote from: theOutlander on October 08, 2020, 07:29:58 AMAnd the hidden culprit - dead ends. What if the party stumbles at a puzzle, or can't find the hidden thing, or doesn't think for the proper way to exit the room: should I throw waves of random encounters at them, or let them die because of failed search roll/missed clue? I'm not sure how to handle such events, because if I improv a couple of times or give them leeway, it becomes a habit and then it's a matter of WHEN not IF they progress. And the WHEN part is what drags out.

If the dungeon is designed in such a way that failing to solve a single puzzle or finding a thing brings exploration to a halt, then that's a bad dungeon. There's a lot to old-school dungeon design, and this post elsewhere is a good starting point, especially since the linear dungeons described in it are exactly the type where such bad bottlenecks can easily occur.

If the problem is that the players DO have the option to just turn around and explore some other part of the dungeon but consistently decide not to, and instead get hung up on the problem at hand, that's a problem of bad players. Keep rolling for random encounters at the intervals prescribed by the game, and also make sure to keep track of when their torches and lamps will run out of fuel and go out. After the second or third (near-TPK) under such circumstances, you'll want to sit down and talk with them about whether they've noticed the reason for their regualr failures, and just flat out TELL them why they suck if they're still too dumb to figure it out.

I've been doing real-time dungeoncrawling in my Roll20 campaign.

E.g. if an effect takes 1 hour, set a real timer for an hour.

The players explore by moving their tokens around the map with arrow keys, so the passage of real-time maps in-game time pretty closely.

Quote from: Libramarian on October 11, 2020, 12:57:28 PM
I've been doing real-time dungeoncrawling in my Roll20 campaign.

E.g. if an effect takes 1 hour, set a real timer for an hour.

The players explore by moving their tokens around the map with arrow keys, so the passage of real-time maps in-game time pretty closely.

Interesting!

I guess time does actually map pretty closely, if you take a 1 hour Short Rest in game after each 5-round combat that takes 1 hour IRL.

Of course I did have 9 players last night in Roll20, so might have slightly skewed experience....

How would you all run the scene with the trash compactor in Star Wars if the compactor could be dealt with from the inside either by disarming it or breaking the mechanism somehow? This use case presumes that the whole party is in the compactor and at least the first couple of checks (if any, by your rulings) fail.

Things to include - how many turns, order of PC actions, how and what to roll (if required) and DC, whatever else you think is important to include. The system of choice doesn't matter as long as it is OSR-ish.

It may not the smartest or best designed puzzle, but I think it's illustrative enough.

I will try to make time for a longer answer, but here's my core thoughts on OSR dungeoncrawling (which I love more than any other form of RPGing).

1) I run the dungeon as Haunted House. Every "trick" from horror RPGing is on the table when I run dungeons.

2) This House belongs to the Monsters, not the PCs. (aka, many of them know its secrets and they will use that constantly to their advantage). This is enemy territory and the PCs are the invaders, often clueless, noisy invaders.

3) Wandering Monsters are your friend. As with #2, imagine how the various denizens move through the dungeon, why and where, and what they leave behind as they travel.

Here's a fun question to muse. If the dungeon is in darkness and the PCs have a light source, how far away can that light be seen...and what do monsters think and do when they sense the light?

Quote from: theOutlander on October 12, 2020, 05:26:31 PM
How would you all run the scene with the trash compactor in Star Wars if the compactor could be dealt with from the inside either by disarming it or breaking the mechanism somehow? This use case presumes that the whole party is in the compactor and at least the first couple of checks (if any, by your rulings) fail.

Things to include - how many turns, order of PC actions, how and what to roll (if required) and DC, whatever else you think is important to include. The system of choice doesn't matter as long as it is OSR-ish.

It may not the smartest or best designed puzzle, but I think it's illustrative enough.

It's just a trap, not a scene.

Are you trying to control the micro?  This feels like a DM trying to control the micro

I write up places and situations as they exist before and apart from players.  Then I introduce players and the environment reacts to whatever they do.  I'm not trying to make any particular event/sequence/etc happens.  If I know how the adventure mostly plays out, that's very boring.  I expect the players to surprise me, and we end up somewhere nobody really expected when we sat down.

I'm definitely not thinking "ok, in round 3 this is the likely player action" or whatever.  Instead, I'm thinking about what the plans/tendencies of "my side" are, and playing that straight, win lose or draw.  Don't try to get into your players heads, get into the head(s) of your NPCs and monsters - why did they build this trap, what is their likely ability and tendencies, and what did they make the trap to do?  Then run that. 

The players are likely to react in a way you didn't foresee.  Extrapolate according to whatever knowns you laid out beforehand.  If the players defeat it easily, congratulate them.  It it turns them all into paste, commiserate with them as you pull out the blank character sheets.

Just relax.  This isn't supposed to be hard, because the DM isn't doing more than set up the playground - trying to guide the play is where things go south most of the time.  You're playing an honest version of their opposition, reacting and acting as circumstances-yet-to-be-known will make clear in that moment. 

Fair enough. But what does "control the micro" mean?

Trying to guide/plan what happens after contact, specific to the players.  (Obviously every NPC/monster has a plan. I mean specific to the players' play experience)