Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PM
I have a limited frame of reference, for Sword & Sorcery stuff.  I've watched the original Conan movies, and the first two Mummy and Scorpion King movies.  When very young, I once read The Sword & The Sorcerer.  Perhaps I have a little bit to work from?

I have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.

By using Mythras as a system.
Following that, Mongoose D20 Conan.
Following that, DCC Lankhmar, or DCC Tales from the Fallen Empire.
Following that, Astonishing Swords and Sorcerers of Hyperborea.
Following that, Totems of the Dead for Savage Worlds.
Following that, Beasts and Barbarians for Savage Worlds.
Following that, Barbarians of Lemuria.

To this, add anything of Xoth by Thulsa (Morton Braten)

Haven't read Primeval Thule, so can't comment.

Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 08:42:20 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 26, 2021, 07:19:29 PM
I should have asked this question before I responded, are you looking to use the D&D or PF rules to run a Sword and Sorcery setting, or use the settings in those games to run a Sword and Sorcery game?  I ask this because in both settings the use of magic is somewhat common, and the world has been shaped around this.  So I am not so sure those settings will be compatible.  Now the RUINS of those settings from too much mucking about with magic, could make a perfect setting for Sword and Sorcery.

  Are you considering any other rules, or want the rules around the settings you describe?  If you are somewhat married to the D20 and feats, I can not recommend getting a copy of the Mongoose run of Conan enough.  If you are more willing to branch out, I have some suggestions, but I will hold those to see if rules and setting are set for you.

Well.... I already own White Box FMAG, 1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5E, 4E, 5E, PF 1E, PF 2E Playtest, Lion & Dragon, DCC, and Dungeon World.  A bunch of dead trees.  I'd like to work from my current pile of dead trees, if possible.  I can forbid feats and multiclassing.  Perhaps forbid certain classes too?

  I think with DCC and making wizards and clerics NPCs and removing demi humans you can make it happen with very little work.    Honestly since you have less need for 'purity' to the genre, meaning you may be more familiar with the comic version of Conan versus the Howard version, you can probably just go with DCC as is, and remove demi humans.

  I still say, IF you wanted to pull it off best for the system you have and use, get Mongoose Conan.   It uses 3.5 and is by far IMO the best iteration of D20 for swords and sorcery I have seen.

Quote from: crkrueger on June 27, 2021, 06:17:57 AM

Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PM
I have a limited frame of reference, for Sword & Sorcery stuff.  I've watched the original Conan movies, and the first two Mummy and Scorpion King movies.  When very young, I once read The Sword & The Sorcerer.  Perhaps I have a little bit to work from?

I have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.

By using Mythras as a system.
Following that, Mongoose D20 Conan.
Following that, DCC Lankhmar, or DCC Tales from the Fallen Empire.
Following that, Astonishing Swords and Sorcerers of Hyperborea.
Following that, Totems of the Dead for Savage Worlds.
Following that, Beasts and Barbarians for Savage Worlds.
Following that, Barbarians of Lemuria.

To this, add anything of Xoth by Thulsa (Morton Braten)

Haven't read Primeval Thule, so can't comment.

  I just got Mythras, and I am pretty impressed with it as a system for Swords and Sorcery.   I would add to the list though, GURPS Conan along with Gurps lite.   Though I dont know how hard that is to get these days, I thought they re released a pdf a few years ago.

For DnD 5e, I would say you need start with "5e: HARDCORE MODE" from Runehammer Games.  Professor Dungeon Master does a good review of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZP92GaTb84

My second option is to play Dungeon Crawl Classics. Because as it says on the back of the rulebook:
"You're no hero. You're an adventurer: a reaver, a cutpurse, a heathen-slayer, a tight-lipped warlock guarding long-dead secrets. You seek gold and glory, winning it with sword and spell, caked in the blood and filth of the weak, the dark, the demons, and the vanquished. There are treasures to be won deep underneath, and you shall have them."

That said, I don't know how successful you will be in getting players that are normalized to the high-fantasy, all PCs are above-average, lots of magic items, and PC death being nearly impossible, to buy into it. Best of luck.

This has become a good thread.  Lots of good suggestions.

Regarding concerns about player buy in; I think it would work fine with either first time players, or else older players who have grown tired of super high fantasy.  It's time for some mud and blood fantasy.

If I was going for a pulpy S&S feel in a Pathfinder setting, I'd probably start by ditching the Pathfinder system and trying out the Savage Worlds version.

Just a quick note: while there is certainly nothing wrong with a game where you're an easily-killed dirty non-hero, sword & sorcery doesn't have to be about that. Conan is far beyond the abilities of most civilised men, and Elric of Melniboné is a powerful sorcerer and summoner. It's perfectly okay to have a high-power S&S game, as long as you also provide an opposition that remains a challenge to overcome.

Snakes.

Add lots of snakes. Poisonous snakes. Giant poisonous snakes. Giant poisonous snake idols that are surrounded by cultists who writhe around in a big pile and get eaten by snake priests that turn into giant poisonous snakes. If you have a creepy giant poisonous spider or two, throw that in there as well.

Princesses and noblewomen who lie around in belly dancer outfits in a drug induced stupor.

All magic requires some sort of sacrifice, usually the lives of innocent people. Blood is what gives magic its "kick". Sorcerers are all weird and strangely repulsive, though they think themselves admired and/or respected or feared by "the lesser mortals".

Tie XP to the spending of gold on frivolities rather than its procurement.

Weird traps that turn one inside out—literally, or change one into some type of vermin.

Also, a friendly demon that has an elephant head.


In addition to the previously mentioned recommendations, try the animated film "Fire and Ice". It is free on YouTube.

Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PMI have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.

4e Dark Sun was very well done. Among the best 4e books.
Definitely all you need to run a S&S D&D game.

As for "what is S&S?", that's for you as the DM to decide and let your players know. The number of definitions I've seen bandied about online become so whackass and contradictory, even worse when "academics" babble about it.

Quote from: Premier on June 27, 2021, 08:51:18 PM
Just a quick note: while there is certainly nothing wrong with a game where you're an easily-killed dirty non-hero, sword & sorcery doesn't have to be about that. Conan is far beyond the abilities of most civilised men, and Elric of Melniboné is a powerful sorcerer and summoner. It's perfectly okay to have a high-power S&S game, as long as you also provide an opposition that remains a challenge to overcome.

I see Conan and Elirc more as NPCs than PCs, or as high-level PCs. And don't forget that Elric has an abnormally low Con and (iirc) a low Str, and that is is possession of Stormbringer that mitigates them.

Regardless, I agree that is it risk of death that ultimately matters. It just seems (to me) that is more difficult to do in high-power games, or in 5E. YMMV.

Quote from: Premier on June 27, 2021, 08:51:18 PM
Just a quick note: while there is certainly nothing wrong with a game where you're an easily-killed dirty non-hero, sword & sorcery doesn't have to be about that. Conan is far beyond the abilities of most civilised men, and Elric of Melniboné is a powerful sorcerer and summoner. It's perfectly okay to have a high-power S&S game, as long as you also provide an opposition that remains a challenge to overcome.

   Conan does not start out high powered.  He survives his early adventures through his most prodigious ability, which is luck.  I would not judge Sword and Sorcery based on Conan alone, as a character.  I would look at the world he is living in, and how others fare in it.  That is who the players are going to be, other people in that world, not the literal god among mortals made flesh that is Conan.  This still leaves a lot of room for great competence and heroism, but I think teamwork and luck will still be needed (as there is not magical healing, other than that sweet golden wine) as well as brains to come out on top.   I think the tone of being too easy killed a non hero is more the tone of 'grimdark' warhammer type games, and not sword and sorcery.   All the same, I would not use Conan as my metric to what a competent player is going to look and perform like.  The most important thing to remember about Conan, is the first story printed was him being attacked while already a king.  This effectively gives him plot armor for every story that takes place before this.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 28, 2021, 09:31:22 AM

Quote from: Premier on June 27, 2021, 08:51:18 PM
Just a quick note: while there is certainly nothing wrong with a game where you're an easily-killed dirty non-hero, sword & sorcery doesn't have to be about that. Conan is far beyond the abilities of most civilised men, and Elric of Melniboné is a powerful sorcerer and summoner. It's perfectly okay to have a high-power S&S game, as long as you also provide an opposition that remains a challenge to overcome.

   Conan does not start out high powered.  He survives his early adventures through his most prodigious ability, which is luck.  I would not judge Sword and Sorcery based on Conan alone, as a character.  I would look at the world he is living in, and how others fare in it.  That is who the players are going to be, other people in that world, not the literal god among mortals made flesh that is Conan.  This still leaves a lot of room for great competence and heroism, but I think teamwork and luck will still be needed (as there is not magical healing, other than that sweet golden wine) as well as brains to come out on top.   I think the tone of being too easy killed a non hero is more the tone of 'grimdark' warhammer type games, and not sword and sorcery.   All the same, I would not use Conan as my metric to what a competent player is going to look and perform like.  The most important thing to remember about Conan, is the first story printed was him being attacked while already a king.  This effectively gives him plot armor for every story that takes place before this.

That first story gives him more than just plot armor. It also shows how important wearing real armor was to Conan, something ignored by generations of artists and game designers :-)

Quote from: Vidgrip on June 28, 2021, 12:16:01 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 28, 2021, 09:31:22 AM

Quote from: Premier on June 27, 2021, 08:51:18 PM
Just a quick note: while there is certainly nothing wrong with a game where you're an easily-killed dirty non-hero, sword & sorcery doesn't have to be about that. Conan is far beyond the abilities of most civilised men, and Elric of Melniboné is a powerful sorcerer and summoner. It's perfectly okay to have a high-power S&S game, as long as you also provide an opposition that remains a challenge to overcome.

   Conan does not start out high powered.  He survives his early adventures through his most prodigious ability, which is luck.  I would not judge Sword and Sorcery based on Conan alone, as a character.  I would look at the world he is living in, and how others fare in it.  That is who the players are going to be, other people in that world, not the literal god among mortals made flesh that is Conan.  This still leaves a lot of room for great competence and heroism, but I think teamwork and luck will still be needed (as there is not magical healing, other than that sweet golden wine) as well as brains to come out on top.   I think the tone of being too easy killed a non hero is more the tone of 'grimdark' warhammer type games, and not sword and sorcery.   All the same, I would not use Conan as my metric to what a competent player is going to look and perform like.  The most important thing to remember about Conan, is the first story printed was him being attacked while already a king.  This effectively gives him plot armor for every story that takes place before this.

That first story gives him more than just plot armor. It also shows how important wearing real armor was to Conan, something ignored by generations of artists and game designers :-)

Mainly cause the frank frazetta art is just so iconic

Quote from: Spinachcat on June 28, 2021, 01:11:07 AM

Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PMI have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.

4e Dark Sun was very well done. Among the best 4e books.
Definitely all you need to run a S&S D&D game.

As for "what is S&S?", that's for you as the DM to decide and let your players know. The number of definitions I've seen bandied about online become so whackass and contradictory, even worse when "academics" babble about it.

I have the 4E Dark Sun monster book, but not the setting guide.  Still though, I can grasp the hardness of the setting.  I question where all of those life forms are finding enough water to survive, on Athas?

Quote from: Jam The MF on June 28, 2021, 04:21:39 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on June 28, 2021, 01:11:07 AM

Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PMI have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.

4e Dark Sun was very well done. Among the best 4e books.
Definitely all you need to run a S&S D&D game.

As for "what is S&S?", that's for you as the DM to decide and let your players know. The number of definitions I've seen bandied about online become so whackass and contradictory, even worse when "academics" babble about it.

I have the 4E Dark Sun monster book, but not the setting guide.  Still though, I can grasp the hardness of the setting.  I question where all of those life forms are finding enough water to survive, on Athas?

I think the official answer is "sorta over there, look there's a well".

More logically, there's two main answers that could apply.  Where there's mountains they will collect moisture and have streams, a lot of these streams may end up running dry or underground, but a city like Tyr would probably be collecting it's water that way.

Apart from the you have to propose a giant source of underground water that can be tapped by wells and the like for irrigation.  Something along the lines of the Great Artesian Basin in Australia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Artesian_Basin)  In Romans times there was a civilisation in the Sahara that basically mined it's water from a similar source (https://thinkafrica.net/the-garamantes-the-civilisation-that-mined-fossil-water-from-the-sahara-for-1000-years/)