Quote from: Spinachcat;887586Agreed. This is where 13th Age's Escalation die is a great addition. Players have to choose whether to burn powers early or wait until they can get a good bonus to increase their chance for success.

That might achieve your goal of dailies used to end fights, because it would make sense to wait until you have a +4 bonus (or more) before risking the daily.

This is mostly a random thought and probably beyond the scope of what this thread is trying to accomplish, but I wonder what kind of result you'd get if you ditched the "daily" concept and instead made it so that you needed to set up more powerful abilities before you could use them.

For example, to cast a fireball you might need to expend three Move actions. (So the wizard could stand there slinging magic missile cantrips, but if they can stay in one place long enough -- BOOM!) Or if you wanted to perform some awesome martial arts move, you might have to (a) hit them twice and (b) flank them. Or maybe you need to perform a specific sequence of lesser moves before pulling off the "big combo finisher".

Quote from: Spinachcat;887607I never played 4e GW past 5th level so I can't speak for higher level play, but I definitely felt that it had a lower "whiff" factor. Both PCs and monsters seemed to be hitting more often, but they have higher HPs than AD&D and a higher damage output.

To hits are easier and if my calculations are right then the 4e GW characters are averaging at level 10 about as much HP as a level 20 AD&D fighter. Damage output is the iffy part. The base weapons do a bit more damage. But armour is a little weaker I think. Overall though the massive HP a 4e GW character has is a big advantage.

Do the core 4e characters have such absurd HP and to hit jumps too?

Quote from: TristramEvans;887615I got maybe two paragraphs in before my eyes glazed over and I started daydreaming about unicorns fighting cheetahs.

Who won?

...and were they undead unicorns invading Dundee?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlhQZFTvAn4

Quote from: TristramEvans;887610Jesus. I've never had an RPG skirmish combat run longer than twenty minutes in the last 20 years.

Wow! My 0e fights almost always take longer than that! A short fight for me is usually at least 15 minutes. And I use morale rules.

Maybe my players and I are slow. I do engage in lots of description and roleplay in combat.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;887635I wonder what kind of result you'd get if you ditched the "daily" concept and instead made it so that you needed to set up more powerful abilities before you could use them.

That's an interesting idea.

I wonder how it could be implemented open enough so different ways could achieve the same goal so the path to the "daily" wasn't always the same.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;887634If I had been captured by terrorists and forced to run 4E because otherwise they would murder my mother, I'd probably start doing stuff like that, too. I just found it easier to give up on the badly broken game and go play something else.

Gee, hyperbolic much? Sort of difficult to have any sort of meaningful discussion with vitriol like this.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;8876344th Edition was made for players like you: It caters to a very, very narrow range of experiences (which are apparently the only experiences you're interested in) and it benefits greatly from GMs who are willing to just ignore the rulebook whenever the game's shitty design is causing a problem.

Gotta say, I'm confused. You don't really believe that do you? Especially because I'm a pretty vocal van of both 5e and 3.5 and Pathfinder, which apparently, offers a lot more range in terms of experiences. Suffice to say that I enjoy 4e in ways it accomplishes certain aspects of RPGs. As for ignoring the book, yea I took the advise in the DMG and changed things to make the game better for me and our group. You know, shit people have been doing in almost EVERY RPG since the dawn of fucking time. Ignoring rules that the group or DM doesn't like is something of an expectation in systems like AD&D 2e. Shit the vast majority of people I know don't use or modify HALF the damn rules in that game: from no XP penalty, no class racial restrictions to throwing out alignment altogether. But I guess that's OK, for some reason because it's not 4e.  

Quote from: Justin Alexander;887634Well... yes. You just got done saying that you didn't use the actual rules and would modify them on the fly specifically to prevent that from happening, so that's unsurprising.

We're literally in a thread about fixing 4E's problems. Your endless litany of, "THE PROBLEMS DON'T EXIST BECAUSE THE GM CAN JUST IGNORE ALL OF THEM!" is the worst kind of rule zero fallacy.

Yea I never said they didn't exist, considering the large amount of people who had problems with them. I just don't know why people didn't change the rules to make it better, you know like how people change rules in every other system to make it better? You know, like how the fucking DMG says specifically to alter the game so that you have a more enjoyable experience. And yes, I'm going to mention it because that was a "Fix" we implemented in our games to make them better.

As for not following the rules, I'd say we followed roughly 90% of them. Depending on the style of game we wanted to use, I'd adjust the amount of Surges each class received. We also threw out the limitation on using Daily items based on Milestones. If a player wanted to re-use a Encounter or Daily spell, I'd let them re-use it in lieu of a higher level one. If a Fighter wanted Bow Powers, I'd make them fucking Bow Powers. I also let them change out spells/Exploits on a daily basis based on what they wanted to do. If, for example, a Fighter found a magical two-handed Axe I'd allow him to practice with the weapon and change out his Exploits to accommodate his weapon-selection. Why, you ask? Because the game is about being fun and if players are engaged and having fun, then I'm doing something right. Besides this isn't rocket science where the smallest change will end up blowing up in your face.

Quote from: Doom;887584Fine.

I claim that Wizards of the Coast is an actual company. It exists, here's the wiki entry..

I claim it printed books for a game, commonly referred to as "Fourth Edition D&D". You can still find these books for sale on E-bay.

I already put it away, because I didn't realize the level of idiocy that would spring up here, but in this book you'll find something called "action points"

Here's the pronunciation for action points: [ˈakSH(ə)n] [points]

A first level character (by "first level" I'm referring to a newly created character in what is called a "role playing game") generally begins each day with an action point, and gains more during play.

An action point allows an extra action during a combat round (play in 4e is generally done in turns, each turn often referred to as a "combat round).

A player using an action point can get an EXTRA (by this I mean, additional, one more) action.

So, a player can take a standard action, then use (that is, activate) an action point, to take an additional action.

As this occurs at 1st level, all that remains is to show that 1st level occurs before 11th level.

If you inspect a number line, you'll see 1 lies to the "left" (will you allow me to use the word "left" without a precise definition?) of 10; this is the very definition of "less than".

Crap, I see that the number line I linked to stops at 10.

Let us recall we use a "base 10" numbering system
. By "eleven" I'm referring to 10 + 1.

Shit.

Your proof is action points?

Action points?

This action point?  to gain an additional standard action once per encounter. A character starts with one action point. To regain an action point a character must reach a milestone or take an extended rest.

Really?

get the fuck outta here.

Quote from: daniel_ream;887095Your proposed system sounds a lot like Cortex+ Heroic, actually.  And there's a Fantasy hack of it available.

Don't know this one...

Quote from: Cave Bear;887207I would definitely not try to make 4E "more D&D" -like. 4E is very much its own thing. Just embrace what 4E is and focus on making it the best possible game it can be.

I would not use estar's class breakdown, for instance. That's a good setup for a OSR-style game, but it does not play to 4E's strengths.

I'd strongly agree with that, a lot of the most annoying things about 4ed were bits of 3ed that was carried over that didn't really fit.

Aaak, gotta run now. Will reply to more stuff in a bit.

Quote from: Spinachcat;887640Who won?

...and were they undead unicorns invading Dundee?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlhQZFTvAn4

Well that's the best thing ever this week.

Keeping with Daztur's "Mythic Heroes" 4e Hack...

Things I Would Keep:

- Minions (I know I said I hate it - and I still do - but it does mythic heroics tier separation so well).
- Bloodied (ditto above, but it's such a solid narrative trigger condition).
- Shortened (Professional Level) Skills List.
- A form of Level progression for Saves, akin to 1/2 lvl , but less...
- Class bonuses to Saves.
- Race bonuses to Saves and Skills.
- Marking (as much as I hated 4e's stacking effects, this was good as it couldn't stack).

Things I Would Change:

- Cascading Mod Dependency (it shouldn't affect everything - AC, Saves, Skills, Surges, Initiative, Attacks, AEDU equations...).
- Lessen Mod Progression (you're already an epic hero; let Minions rules highlight that tier difference. Could easily halve or quarter Abil Mod progression).
- Drop 1/2 lvl as the universal level progression modifier. (Instead use Class Mods as the Save progression, and ideally outpace the lowered Abil Mods. Drop entirely from Skills, Attacks, AC, Init...)
- Strip out almost all Skill Mods, (as Pro Skills they should be rolled sparingly, otherwise just use Ability roll-under directly, with Race, Train, & Misc Mods as rare - and mostly cosmetic - sprinkles atop).
- Open Chargen Out-of-Class Skills but cost 1 pt more. Make the majority of the Skills Generic Non-Class.
- Drop current Initiative entirely. (Create a table of contextual group or individual modifiers if you must, but best not. Fog of War is infinitely better here in practice; waaay more drama integral to it.)
- AEDU is just gone. (Exception-based design is shooting for CCG heartbreak.)
- 3e Action Legacies are also just gone. (5e did Attacks, Reactions, Enviro Interact, and Movement right. Quick, dynamic, mythic, harder to metagame.)
- Change Healing Surges & Action Points into Hero Points. Hero Points are Level & Tier, so every equivalent mythic hero gets the same point pool.
- Add an equivalent to "Fighter Attacks vs. <1HD Equal to Class Level." Perhaps "Attacks vs. Minions Equal to Class Level"?
-------------------------------

Continuing with my work from before, now with the Wizard. I'll focus on a school because I wonder how this could work. Maybe generic "class trigger responses" can be offered, but examples of "archetype trigger responses" can lead to creative variation.

Abjuration Wizard

Combat

1. Bloodied. Thunderous Arcane Wave (a.k.a. Big Thunderwave).
2. Downed Ally/Self. Lasting Shield (a.k.a. multi-round Shield spell).
3. Last Stand. Sealing Sigil (lasting protective circle locking out a space).

Explore

1. Evidence/Slip Up. Unseen "Fixer" (a.k.a. Unseen Servant covers up errors).
2. Exposed. Abjurer's Egress (a.k.a. oodles of Arcane Lock & Knock).
3. Cornered. Vibrating Aura (a.k.a. Dmg Over Time Aura & Anti-Magic Shell).

Social

1. Faux Pas. Warding Against the Evil Eye (blame misstep on unseen malice).
2. Gross Breach. Heaven Forfend! (prompt apology; proffered protection token).
3. Grave Insult. Debt of Protection (negotiation of discounted or gratis services).
-----------------------

Later I'll scribble up a new pared down 4e character, with Hero Points and Class Triggers included.

New Ability Mod Progression
1-4 = -2
5-8 = -1
9-12 = 0
13-16 = +1
17-20 = +2

Tiers
Progresses by each five levels.

Tier 1 = Lvls 1-5
Tier 2 = Lvls 6-10
Tier 3 = Lvlvs 11-15
etc.

Core 4 Classes Save Progression
Equation is 10+ Abil Mod+ Class Mod+ Race Mod+ Misc.

Initial mod values at 1st lvl below. From then on every odd level gains in this sequence: 3rd lvl - Primary +1, 5th lvl - Secondary +1, 7th lvl - +1 to all three saves, repeat pattern from beginning sequence.
(e.g. 9th lvl - Primary +1, 11th lvl - Secondary +1, 13th lvl - +1 to all three...)

Cleric
Prime - Will +1.  Secondary - Fort +0.  Tertiary - Refl -1.

Fighter
Prime - Fort +1.  Secondary - Refl +0.  Tertiary - Will -1.

Rogue
Prime - Refl +1. Secondary - Fort +0. Tertiary - Will -1.

Wizard
Prime - Will +1.  Secondary - Refl +0.  Tertiary - Fort -1.

Skills
Equation is Ability Score (not mod)+ Race Mod+ Extra Training+ Misc. Roll under value as percentile. Roll sparingly, especially for known Skills, as they are a professional level of knowledge. Hero Points can be spent in lieu of professional skill knowledge, but should grant enough use (and possible otherworldly intervention!) so as to seem "mythic."

Everyone starts with 5 pts for Starting Skills.
General Skills are open to all, they do not cost extra.
Class Specialties are harder to start with outside of class, costing 1 more point at chargen.

Every Tier you gain one new point for Professional Level Skill knowledge. This point may be used as Extra Training in a known Skill for +2 to that Skill.

General Skills
Bluff (CHA)
Diplomacy (CHA)
Heal (WIS)
History (INT)
Insight (WIS)
Intimidate (CHA)
Nature (WIS)
Perception (WIS)
Stealth (DEX)

Class Specialties

Cleric - Religion & Endurance
Fighter - Acrobatics & Athletics
Rogue - Streetwise & Thievery
Wizard - Arcana & Dungeoneering

Hero Points

Hero Points are equal to PC's Class level plus their Tier level. e.g. Eleventh level PC is Tier 3, thus has fourteen hero points (11+3=14).

Tier-based Hero Points refresh wholly each day after an 8 hour rest (Long Rest).

Class Level-based Hero Points refresh one point per day while residing among peaceful civilization, spreading one's stories of glory and reveling in one's success (even sizeable nomadic camps count).

Hero Points are spent to ameliorate truly bad turns in the hero's journey. As such, certain failure or misfortune conditions apply before usable. Ideally this is a strategic, as well as tactical, reservoir to smooth out the Hero's Glorious Saga.

Minions

Minions take as many hits equal to their Tier to go down. So a Tier 3 (lvls 11-15) Minion takes three hits to K.O.

Any minions at or below your PC tier allows your PC to take as many attacks equal to their level, only for attacking such minions.

e.g. A Tier 3 PC, 11th lvl, faces off against: a King of Minotaurs, two Tier 3 minions (Maze Minotaurs), five Tier 2 minions (WereBulls), and six Tier 1 minions (frenzied cows). The thirteen minions take twenty-two hits total to wipe them all out (2x Tier 3 = 6, 5x Tier 2 = 10, 6x Tier 1 = 6. Total = 22). Since all minions are at or below the PC's tier level, the PC gets 11 minion-only attacks a turn, which can make short work of them yet.

......................

Next, a simplified 4e PC using the above guidelines, as promised.

Had a look at a friends copy of the PHB and Jesus Wept people werent joking about all the screwball terms and overwrought rules in this?!? Shudder to think what the DMG is like.

No wonder people were lauding the GW version as what a starter for 4e D&D should have been. yeesh.

Great art though.

Some at a glance observations.
Thats an absurd amount of starting HP. Especially when combined with the plethora of healing surges. Are the low level monsters that lethal? Or are the PCs supposed to be that sturdy out the gate? And yeebus thats alot of perks and powers to track.

Weird way to do AC. Works. But again seems to boost the PCs defense way up?

Crazy thing is, even at a glance through it seems to be a fairly well thought out and intigrated system. Can see why some would gravitate to it.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;887634If I had been captured by terrorists and forced to run 4E because otherwise they would murder my mother, I'd probably start doing stuff like that, too. I just found it easier to give up on the badly broken game and go play something else.

Quote from: Batman;887659Gee, hyperbolic much? Sort of difficult to have any sort of meaningful discussion with vitriol like this.

Justin's just joking.  We all know any mother would rather die then live with the dishonor of their son running 4e.

Quote from: Omega;887853Some at a glance observations.
Thats an absurd amount of starting HP. Especially when combined with the plethora of healing surges. Are the low level monsters that lethal? Or are the PCs supposed to be that sturdy out the gate?

A Goblin Warrior (lv. 1 skirmisher) deals 1d8+2 with spears and 1d6+2 with javelins. If it moves at least 4 squares from it's starting position, it deals an additional d6 on it's ranged attacks. A goblin blackblade (lv. 1 lurker), deals 1d6+2 with it's short sword and an additional 1d6 against targets it has advantage against. With a 1st level Fighter having between 28-30 HP, the idea is that their amount of HP should last them for a couple of encounters barring a lot of critical hits on their part. This is going off the MM1 manual, which, admittedly, has poor math. Still, healing mid-combat, is the limiting factor because you can only self-heal 1/encounter and it takes a Standard Action too. Leaders like the Cleric and Warlord, can only mid-combat heal 2/encounter barring any use of other Daily spells or exploits. I have had, on many occasions, the part almost fall to TPKs because the Leader wasn't in a good position to heal or used up their heals and players gambled on making another attack vs. using their Second Wind.

Taking the better supplement, Monster Vault: Threats to Nentir Vale a Goblin Cuttthroat (lv. 1 skirmisher) deals 1d6+5 (or 2d6+5 if it has combat advantage) and their ranged attacks with a dagger deal 1d4+5. So lower die but higher automatic damage making them more lethal. When playing 4e I usually just reference Monster Vault rather than the Monster Manual 1 or 2. MM 3 is also a pretty good book with better monsters.

Quote from: Omega;887853And yeebus thats alot of perks and powers to track.

I dunno, 2 at-will, 1 encounter (or 2, depending on race), and 1 daily plus a few features isn't all that much when you're comparing it to 3rd edition by say....3rd level, especially with many of the later classes. And feats are almost always just bonues or buffs compared to mini-class feaures of 3rd edition. Just for comparison take the Duskblade (v3.5, PH2) that has X-amount of cantrips, x-amount of spell per day, gets feats and additional class features. Or a 1st level Human wizard with 3 feats, an animal familiar, 1 + Int. Mod spells per day plus cantrips, of which you're pretty much expected to know.

Quote from: Omega;887853Weird way to do AC. Works. But again seems to boost the PCs defense way up?

AC is done the same way as in 3rd you just don't add Dex to heavy armor. Chainmail + shield in 4e is 18 (Base 10 + 6 + 2) and Chainmail in 3e is 17 (Base 10 + 5 + 2). Cool thing about shields in 4e (and 5e I believe) is that they help your Reflex defense, which is pretty nice. A wizard with Int 18 is going to have an AC of 14 (base 10 + Int. mod of 4) and that Goblin Cutthroat has an attack modifier of +6, so he'll be hitting the wizard 60% of the time or more with advantage.

Quote from: Omega;887853Crazy thing is, even at a glance through it seems to be a fairly well thought out and intigrated system. Can see why some would gravitate to it.

Unfortunately it wasn't enough and changed far too much for people to really get on board. The layout, the lack of charts, the forcing of things like Stat Arrays for generating ability scores instead of rolling (although they're both detailed in the PHB) and removing 5 very interesting classes (Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, and Sorcerer) put off a LOT of people. Not to mention all the stuff leading up to 4e's release that didn't help things at all.

Quote from: Sommerjon;887788Your proof is action points?

Action points?

This action point?  to gain an additional standard action once per encounter. A character starts with one action point. To regain an action point a character must reach a milestone or take an extended rest.

Really?

get the fuck outta here.

Holy shit, you don't know about action points? Fair enough.

A level 1 warlord has Commander's Strike...again, the Fightbrain is getting an extra attack this way. Any half-elf in the party could have this as well.

We're at level 1, and already have 3 different ways the Battlemind can attack while also being incredibly resistant to damage. Seeing as a "typical" fight in 4e takes 4 rounds, we've got 3 rounds covered with different abilities without even getting to higher level abilities.

Do you even know what a minor action is in 4e?

And this isn't even addressing marking (bit of a big deal with the Fightbrain) and opportunity attacks. A quick example, not that it will do any good:

The second "punishment" a battlemind can use on a marked enemy is mind spike, an at-will immediate reaction. A marked, adjacent enemy that deals damage to an ally with an attack which does not target the battlemind takes force and psychic damage equal to the damage it hit your pal with. So, if Zorbo the Angry Goblin Blackblade crits your combat granting ally for 14 damage and you have him marked and next to you, Zorbo will find himself in a world of hurt when he takes 14 damage.

So, start the round, use the action point, mark 3 guys, become mostly invulnerable to damage...and still become the center of attention and/or deal damage to foes. I'd go into the other Battlemind abilities that keep him close to foes so that this goes on forever, but I suspect it would be pointless.

Enough schooling people that have never even played the game, we're done here. Most likely you won't understand what I've said above any more than anything else, and continue to just spout obscenities...no need for me to feed the troll any further.

I'm leaving equations in because I apparently forgot a lot of 4e equations. I had to bust out my old character sheets and check the 4e Wikia. For the most part the equations have small alterations.

First, the ugly behind the scenes character sheet

Garreth, the Extortionist (Asshole of the Sinking Marsh Slums)
7th class lvl, 2nd tier.

ABILITIES
Ability Stat Array: 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10. Choose in-order.
Human Ability Race Bonus: +2 on any one ability. Choose CHA.
4th lvl Ability Increase: +1 on two separate abilities. Choose STR & CHA.

STR: 17 (+2). CON: 14 (+1). DEX: 13 (+1). INT: 12 (0). WIS: 11 (0). CHA: 13 (+1)

HIT POINTS
Fighter = 15+CON Score+(6 per add'l lvl).

15+14+(6*6) = 29+36 = 65 HP

Hero Points
Class Lvl + Tier Lvl = Hero Points Pool.

7 class lvls + 2 tier lvls = 9 Hero Points.
Tier Hero Points = 2.

Armor Class
Abil+Armor+Shield+Misc+Misc = AC.
No need to bloat as many enemies should be shuffled to minion status after surpassing their tier.

10 + Chain Mail (6) + Hvy Shield (2) = AC 18

Saves
10+Abil+Class+Race+Misc (+Shield for Refl)
Highest mod of each STR/CON, DEX/INT, WIS/CHA pair.
Fighter Class is Fort +1, Refl +0, Will -1. Then follow sequence prescribed above.
Human Race is +1 for each save.

Fort = 10 +2 (Abil) +1 (Class 1st lvl) +1 (Class 3rd lvl) +1 (Class 7th lvl) +1 (Race) = 16.
Refl = 10 +1 (Abil) +0 (Class 1st lvl) +1 (Class 5th lvl) +1 (Class 7th lvl) +1 (Race) +2 (Hvy Shield) = 14, 16 with Hvy Shield.
Will = 10 +1 (Abil) -1 (Class 1st lvl) +1 (Class 7th lvl) +1 (Race) = 12.

Skills
Five starting professional skill points, one add'l per tier.

7th lvl = 6 professional skills.

Athletics (STR), in-class
Acrobatics (DEX), in-class
Intimidate (CHA), generic
Stealth (DEX), generic
Streetwise (CHA), out-of-class +1 skill pt

Attacks
Same as 4e: 1/2 lvl +str/dex/cha mod +prof +race +enh +item = To Hit.

3 + 2/1/1 +3 (2 for ranged) +0 race +0 enh +0 item = 8/7/7 (7/6/6 ranged).

Triggers
(from previous post)
-----------------------------------

Now the cleaned up, very easy-to-use character sheet

Garreth, the Extortionist (Asshole of the Sinking Marsh Slums)
7th level, 2nd tier.

Bio
Violently possessive overlord of his slum domain. Shakes down locals, but avenges his community against opportunistic intruders. Known to harbor grudges and go to great lengths for revenge.

ABILITIES

STR: 17 (+2). CON: 14 (+1). DEX: 13 (+1). INT: 12 (0). WIS: 11 (0). CHA: 13 (+1)

HIT POINTS

65 HP

Hero Points

Hero Points = 9.
Tier Hero Points = 2.

Armor Class

Chain Mail + Hvy Shield
AC 16, 18 with shield

Saves

Fort = 16.
Refl = 14, 16 with Hvy Shield.
Will = 12.

Skills

17 Athletics (STR)
13 Acrobatics (DEX)
13 Intimidate (CHA)
13 Stealth (DEX)
13 Streetwise (CHA)

Attacks

STR/DEX/CHA to-hit = 8/7/7 (7/6/6 ranged).

Hero Point Triggers

Combat

1. Bloodied. Second Wind.
2. Downed Ally/Self. Vengeance.
3. Last Stand. Whirlwind of Death.

Explore

1. Evidence/Slip Up. Olympian Athletics.
2. Exposed. Olympian Endurance.
3. Cornered. In the Zone.

Social

1. Faux Pas. Forgiveable Brute.
2. Gross Breach. Minor Debt of Honor/Gentleman's Duel.
3. Grave Insult. Geas.


Daztur, how is this? Is it closer to your mythic heroics ideal, a la Beowulf or Gilgamesh?

Quote from: Cave Bear;887207I would definitely not try to make 4E "more D&D" -like. 4E is very much its own thing. Just embrace what 4E is and focus on making it the best possible game it can be.

I would not use estar's class breakdown, for instance. That's a good setup for a OSR-style game, but it does not play to 4E's strengths.

Yup, the main things that gummed up the works with 4ed were things carried over from 3ed that weren't TSR D&D (skills, feats, etc.).

Quote from: jeff37923;887229Don't use it for D&D, use it for sports inspired fantasy games like Blood Bowl.

Otherwise, fix it by setting the books on fire.

Yup, 4ed isn't much good for traditional D&D but it really works for other things. Liked the kaiju game I played where I got to use a gummi worm as a mini for my reskinned Tremors worm/Shai Hulud PC that got to eat giant robots.

Quote from: cranebump;887243Every time 4E comes up

A) someone mentions their negative experiences with it, followed by

B) someone hops on to tell them they played it wrong.


Every. Fucking. Time.

Well it's true that if you play 4ed wrong it won't be much fun and if you play it right it will, the problem was:
-Playing 4ed in a traditional D&D way is wrong.
-Keep on the Shadowfell did a shit job of teaching people how to play 4ed in a fun way.

So how were people supposed to know how to play 4ed in a fun way?

Quote from: Batman;887313In my experiences 4e's problems were far more "user" based than the system of the game. For some unknown reason people stuck religiously to the RAW of the game and were quite fearful of any departure from the rules. This led to such dumb situations such as:

Agreed. Although it seems like the game was set up with this kind of strict adherence to the RAW assumed. For example the ease of reskinning stuff in 4ed is mostly because of the fact that the "skin" that you put on various mechanical effects doesn't really matter.