OK, assuming you keep the basic 4ed design goals in place (many of which clash pretty badly with standard D&D play) how would you go about fixing 4ed?

Here's my hack at it.

First of all establish what kind of game it is. It's about mythic Beowulf-level heroes who get in big climatic battles, not Cugel pulling a heist in Fantasy Fucking Vietnam.

Then cut away all of the unneeded detritus that's left over from 3ed bloat. Feats, skills, out of combat DCs, the whole lot. Gone. No fucking +1 bonus for fighting ice creatures while picking your nose. Combine healing surges and action points into one bennie (call it hero points or something more creative). Have these hero points be pretty rare.

Then focus in on the stuff that makes 4ed unique: the big stacks of powers. Burn AEDU with fire and have all powers either be at-will ones or ones that you need to spend a hero point to use. Have these powers that cost hero points generally have conditions tied to them like:
-Last stand: can only use if it's your last hero point.
-Vengeance: can only use if it's to hit the guy who just downed your buddy.
-Riposte: can only use if it's to hit the guy that just bloodied you.
etc. etc. etc. and have them do interesting larger than life stuff out of Hercules/Beowulf/Gilgamesh not the pretty weaksauce stuff we got for a lot of martial powers in 4ed.

The main point of that would be to shift the use of hero points (which replace dalies) to the END of combat from the START to make for better pacing. Big combats would often start with the monsters kicking the PCs' shit in and then the PCs using some hero point-fueled powers to turn the tables.

For healing have it be a lot like in 4ed except that hero points are a lot rarer than the action points + dailies + healing surges they're replacing something like this:
-Second wind: shitty hero point to hit point conversion.
-Healing: expert healer heals you, good hero point to hit point conversion.
-Bed rest: sleep for a night, best hero point to hit point conversion.

Then have it really hard to get hero points back, just camping out in Mirkwood wouldn't cut it, you'd need to spend a few days in Rivendell at peace with hippy elves dancing around singing.

For out of combat stuff, no skills and no stupid skill challenges. For human-level stuff PCs can do it automatically or with a simple ability check. For superhuman stuff they'd need to use a power. There'd be powers like giving infinite endurance for a period of time (like Beowulf swimming across the sea in his armor) or massive lifting capacity for one feat (like Hercules) and these would generally cost a hero point to use. Stuff like hollow leg (PC can drink a few barrels of wine and not get drunk) would be fun too.

Dealing with out of combat challenges would generally be about being cunning enough to get past big challenges while spending as few hero points on your big supernatural abilities as possible.

Think that'd hold together relatively well for that sort of game, if a very different one from D&D. Thoughts?

Might be good for a high level Planescape dimension-hopping game.

Quote from: TristramEvans;887065Might be good for a high level Planescape dimension-hopping game.

Or one focused on the more high powered bits of mythology but those tend to run together.

It's just pretty bad for traditional D&D, which is kind of the point...

I don't know if this hacked version is a game that would interest me greatly, but it definitely sounds better than the actual game that was released.

My advice is get off the table.  As in the reason people don't play warlord that much is because it relies too much of having miniatures and grid map.  That is okay for some, but not okay for me.

Despite its utter failure at being Gamma World.

4e D&D Gamma world by all accounts is what many seem to have wanted in a streamlined and more accessible 4e.

Dont know if 4e core has it or not. But GW presented an interesting abstract weapon and armour system that I liked.

Your proposed system sounds a lot like Cortex+ Heroic, actually.  And there's a Fantasy hack of it available.

If 4e RAW doesn't work for you, I highly suggest two options:

If you love minis/maps, then consider the 4e version of Gamma World. It is deadlier, faster and has great creative chargen that you can tweak to different genres. Many of Daztur's tweaks look like stuff in GW.

If you prefer theater of the mind, then consider 13th Age.

Personally, 4e works fine for me as a hybrid RPG/skirmish wargame. But apparently, I'm one of the few DMs who didn't have a problem weaving skill challenges into our roleplaying.

Quote from: Spinachcat;887099If you love minis/maps, then consider the 4e version of Gamma World. It is deadlier, faster and has great creative chargen that you can tweak to different genres. Many of Daztur's tweaks look like stuff in GW.

Me and every player I showed it to hated the near totally random chargen system. A buggy system no less. Remove some of the excessive random and yeah its fun.

I'm actually working on my own 4E D&D inspired game! Need to do another rewrite though.

Quote from: Daztur;887063OK, assuming you keep the basic 4ed design goals in place (many of which clash pretty badly with standard D&D play) how would you go about fixing 4ed?

Here's my hack at it.

First of all establish what kind of game it is. It's about mythic Beowulf-level heroes who get in big climatic battles, not Cugel pulling a heist in Fantasy Fucking Vietnam.

Yeah, any time you start designing a game you need to go into it with a clear idea of what you are trying to do, and carefully consider whether your mechanics reinforce the theme you are aiming for and vise versa.

If there's one problem that's evident with my 4E hack, it's the lack of focus, and that's something I definitely need to work on.

QuoteThen cut away all of the unneeded detritus that's left over from 3ed bloat. Feats, skills, out of combat DCs, the whole lot. Gone. No fucking +1 bonus for fighting ice creatures while picking your nose. Combine healing surges and action points into one bennie (call it hero points or something more creative). Have these hero points be pretty rare.

Even things like the 3-18 scale for ability scores should probably get cut, since they don't really work for 4E. I use a +0 to +5 scale in my own hack.
While I do agree that there is a lot of fat that needs to get trimmed, a lot of the game's material is stuff that can be consolidated and reorganized rather than cut outright.

QuoteThen focus in on the stuff that makes 4ed unique: the big stacks of powers. Burn AEDU with fire and have all powers either be at-will ones or ones that you need to spend a hero point to use. Have these powers that cost hero points generally have conditions tied to them like:
-Last stand: can only use if it's your last hero point.
-Vengeance: can only use if it's to hit the guy who just downed your buddy.
-Riposte: can only use if it's to hit the guy that just bloodied you.
etc. etc. etc. and have them do interesting larger than life stuff out of Hercules/Beowulf/Gilgamesh not the pretty weaksauce stuff we got for a lot of martial powers in 4ed.

Yep. That's basically what I'm doing in my hack.

QuoteThe main point of that would be to shift the use of hero points (which replace dalies) to the END of combat from the START to make for better pacing. Big combats would often start with the monsters kicking the PCs' shit in and then the PCs using some hero point-fueled powers to turn the tables.

That, now, is something I am yet to implement in my own hack.

One issue with forcing players to hold out all of their big big guns for later in the fight is that it can artificially pad out combat. This isn't the way to go if you are trying to speed up combat. 'Alpha strikes' can indeed make for quick fights; the only problem is that enemies that survive your alpha strike are going to take a long slog to finally whittle down.
I think what players need are big opening attacks to clear out weak enemies (and hopefully end easy fights in a single round), and big closing attacks to finish off strong enemies (and cut off the late-battle grind that so many 4E fights end with).

QuoteFor healing have it be a lot like in 4ed except that hero points are a lot rarer than the action points + dailies + healing surges they're replacing something like this:
-Second wind: shitty hero point to hit point conversion.
-Healing: expert healer heals you, good hero point to hit point conversion.
-Bed rest: sleep for a night, best hero point to hit point conversion.

Then have it really hard to get hero points back, just camping out in Mirkwood wouldn't cut it, you'd need to spend a few days in Rivendell at peace with hippy elves dancing around singing

Agreed. Point refreshes in my hack are actually tied to role-playing related stuff to (hopefully) tie the game's noncombat segments back into the game's combat focus.

QuoteFor out of combat stuff, no skills and no stupid skill challenges. For human-level stuff PCs can do it automatically or with a simple ability check. For superhuman stuff they'd need to use a power. There'd be powers like giving infinite endurance for a period of time (like Beowulf swimming across the sea in his armor) or massive lifting capacity for one feat (like Hercules) and these would generally cost a hero point to use. Stuff like hollow leg (PC can drink a few barrels of wine and not get drunk) would be fun too.

Dealing with out of combat challenges would generally be about being cunning enough to get past big challenges while spending as few hero points on your big supernatural abilities as possible.

That's a pretty cool idea.

*edit*

I've just suddenly had an idea...

Some attacks may have a threshold to use, or a variable effect, depending on how many hero points you have spent during the encounter.

What I mean is that you might have a powerful attack that you can use only if you've spent at least X number of hero points previously during the encounter, or an attack that deals an additional +X dice of damage where X is the number of hero points you've already spent.
So you still need to do 'alpha strike' openings in order to set up your 'omega strike' finishes.

The problem is that 4th edition is an exception based design. What make 4e feel like 4e is the list of powers and ability that are exceptions to the normal rules. So to make 4e into something else you have to re-write 75% of the game.

Similar to the issues with coming up with a totally new Magic the Gathering setup. You have to write each and every card to make it feel like something different.

The good news is that because it is exception based it can be done and the game still remain 4e. The result may be underpowered or overpowered compared to the original rules.

What I would do is start with an idea of what genre or setting I am targeting. I would start with a set of basic four classes:

A class that fights
A class that wields arcane magic
A class that wields divine magic
A class that is good at things other than fighting.

I would the existing 4e classes, powers and abilities and figure out their structure. Then come up with a new baseline either lower for a more gritty realistic feel or higher for a even more epic feel. Or just keep the same but the classes would have a different mix of power to reflect my chosen subgenre or setting.

I dabbled with a more realistic version of 4e a couple of years back and my conclusion was that it was a lot of work, that the way to do it was to tamp down on the bonuses, effects, and damage dice. That it would NOT be particularly wargamish as most "powers" are simple progressions of a base packages of abilities and skills. The implication of this would that the then existing 4e fanbase would likely find it boring as a game.

I can't speak to fixing anything, because I'm just not that good at that sort of thing. BUT:

*Keep the different defenses: I REALLY liked how spellcasters had to "roll to hit," just like everyone else. (though I guess you could do that with 5E by just adding +10 to the relevant stats to get static defenses).

Most everything else I could've done without. More fiddly than I wanted

Quote from: Spinachcat;887099Personally, 4e works fine for me as a hybrid RPG/skirmish wargame. But apparently, I'm one of the few DMs who didn't have a problem weaving skill challenges into our roleplaying.

I think that is key to metagame rules in general. From what I've seen, it takes a GM that is comfortable with the rules and running a game where the players can state their action and incorporate it seamlessly without the players having to worry about it.

I would definitely not try to make 4E "more D&D" -like. 4E is very much its own thing. Just embrace what 4E is and focus on making it the best possible game it can be.

I would not use estar's class breakdown, for instance. That's a good setup for a OSR-style game, but it does not play to 4E's strengths.

There's nothing wrong with it.  It may not be what you LIKE (I don't), but it's perfectly functional and does exactly as it says on the tin, it runs a fantasy game.