How To Fight a Forgist?

crkrueger · January 06, 2014, 08:40:09 PM

Quote from: Enlightened;721358That is a very ...unique definition for narrative gaming.

Have you ever seen anyone other than you use this definition?

I've usually heard it used to mean games that value "creating a story" over "simulating physics" (regardless of Ron's original definition).

But I had never heard it used to mean "lots of OOC mechanics" before.

OOC mechanics are the method by which you put story first or influence story. By definition, any story mechanic is OOC as the PC has no knowledge of being in a story or influencing a story, or acting for the purposes of drama, etc.

Justin Alexander · January 06, 2014, 11:54:25 PM

Quote from: Mistwell;721243In this thread, Pemerton is a Forgist and trying to argue that The Forge was a success and a cultural movement and "the preeminent influence on contemporary RPG design."

At least two of those three things are true. All three might be true depending on how you're defining "success" and/or "preeminent".

Those dismissing the influence of the Forge in this thread need to understand that it heavily influenced D&D 4th Edition, FFG's RPGs, and Dragon Age. (I just listed a significant chunk of the bestselling RPGs from the past several years.)

The case can certainly be made that the Forge's success has not translated to success for the industry. But the Forge got what it wanted, it's definitely a cultural movement, and outside of the always lingering influence of Gygax/Arneson I can't think of another influence that's having as much impact on game design right now. Monte Cook, maybe?

Gizmoduck5000 · January 07, 2014, 12:13:49 AM

Quote from: Justin Alexander;721465The case can certainly be made that the Forge's success has not translated to success for the industry. But the Forge got what it wanted, it's definitely a cultural movement, and outside of the always lingering influence of Gygax/Arneson I can't think of another influence that's having as much impact on game design right now. Monte Cook, maybe?

No - Monte Cook didn't really innovate anything - he merely popularized the bureaucracy of rules-heavy 90's games by bringing it into D&D with 3rd edition. That was a movement that started much earlier with ultra-crunch games that placed a premium on "realism".

Likewise, the Forge isn't the birthplace of metagame mechanics. You had Fate points in WHFRP and drama points in WEG Star Wars well before Ron Edwards and Vincent Baker were on the scene.

Justin Alexander · January 07, 2014, 12:15:20 AM

Quote from: Gizmoduck5000;721468No - Monte Cook didn't really innovate anything

Influence doesn't require innovation.

Cook co-designed the bestselling game of the past 13 years and he played a significant role in popularizing RPG ebooks. As a result of the OGL, the former has directly influenced dozens of games (and continues to do so). The latter continues to have significant repercussions on the business side of the equation.

Haffrung · January 07, 2014, 12:30:31 AM

Quote from: Justin Alexander;721465Those dismissing the influence of the Forge in this thread need to understand that it heavily influenced D&D 4th Edition, FFG's RPGs, and Dragon Age. (I just listed a significant chunk of the bestselling RPGs from the past several years.)

Not to mention second-tier games like 13th Age, Dungeon World, The One Ring, Mouse Guard, and Fiasco.

Thing is, as much as the market has largely rejected most of its principles, game designers have lapped up Forge theory. Even designers who work on commercial games. I've come across interviews and blogs where successful designers more or less admit that they work on D&D and Pathfinder to pay the bills, but at their own table they run story games. Whether it's because they're jaded from playing conventional games to death, or they just want to hang with the cool kids, forge theory has a lot influence in the small RPG design community.

The Traveller · January 07, 2014, 12:32:28 AM

Quote from: Haffrung;721473I've come across interviews and blogs where successful designers more or less admit that they work on D&D and Pathfinder to pay the bills, but at their own table they run story games.

Really, where?

Gizmoduck5000 · January 07, 2014, 12:43:59 AM

Quote from: Justin Alexander;721469Influence doesn't require innovation.

Cook co-designed the bestselling game of the past 13 years and he played a significant role in popularizing RPG ebooks. As a result of the OGL, the former has directly influenced dozens of games (and continues to do so). The latter continues to have significant repercussions on the business side of the equation.

If that's your criteria, then you have failed to cite the contributions of Skip Williams, Jonathon Tweet and Ryan Dancey.

robiswrong · January 07, 2014, 01:22:52 AM

Quote from: Haffrung;721473Thing is, as much as the market has largely rejected most of its principles, game designers have lapped up Forge theory.

This fails to surprise me.

Much like most of the well-known theorists in the MMO space have their ideas. And those ideas, and adherence to them, is an incredibly *terrible* predictor of popularity or viability of the games once they hit the public.

I think it's a combination of a couple of things - people in the industry just being overexposed (like how movie critics like films about gay cowboys eating pudding, just because *it's different*), combined with what people *want* to work (as opposed to what experientially *does* work), topped off with a heaping helping of "confusing my preferences for an objective standard of goodness".

arminius · January 07, 2014, 01:49:44 AM

Popularity of Forge approaches among designers is also probably because Forge theory appeals to designers' egos. In reality, the effect a designer can have on the success of a game, either commercially or in play, is limited. But the Forge approach not only amplifies the role of the designer but implies that successful design is a product of convergent analysis, focusing on well-defined mechanics. It offers a promise of being able to communicate your vision perfectly.

Spinachcat · January 07, 2014, 02:19:43 AM

Here's how you win:

1. Get the Forgist in a room with a stranger who may have heard of RPGs, but never played.

2. Have the Forgist explain his favorite Forge RPG to the stranger.

3. Somehow keep from peeing yourself in hysterics as the stranger says "Oh, so its like D&D?"

That's the great and mighty joke. The OSR grogtard and the Forge hipster think they are worlds apart, but to anyone outside the hobby, they are just two people who play WoW without a computer.

Zeea · January 07, 2014, 02:50:39 AM

To fight a Forgist:

1: For the first 20 seconds, he'll throw alternating left and right jabs. Dodge those and counter-punch twice after each.

2: At 22 seconds, he'll blink twice. Punch him in the face for a star.

3: When he draws back for a power punch, stun him with a bodyblow, then press start to use the star and floor him with an uppercut.

4: When he gets up, counterpunch him as he throws his first jab and he'll stay down for the 10 count. You'll continue on to the fight with King Hippo after that.

5: King Hippo really likes FATE, and insists on spelling it with all capital letters.

Gizmoduck5000 · January 07, 2014, 04:31:22 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat;721490Here's how you win:

1. Get the Forgist in a room with a stranger who may have heard of RPGs, but never played.

2. Have the Forgist explain his favorite Forge RPG to the stranger.

3. Somehow keep from peeing yourself in hysterics as the stranger says "Oh, so its like D&D?"

That's the great and mighty joke. The OSR grogtard and the Forge hipster think they are worlds apart, but to anyone outside the hobby, they are just two people who play WoW without a computer.

Troof!

Kemper Boyd · January 07, 2014, 04:59:28 AM

Quote from: Haffrung;721473Thing is, as much as the market has largely rejected most of its principles, game designers have lapped up Forge theory. Even designers who work on commercial games.

And there's a secondary effect too, games like Mouse Guard, 13th Age and Dungeon World have an influence on people who design games even if they've never read a single thing directly from the Forge.

S'mon · January 07, 2014, 06:16:45 AM

Quote from: Black Vulmea;721273Y'know, pemerton is one of the few FoR (Friends of Ron) with whom I actually enjoyed conversing, when I was still active on EN World.

Pemerton is a good guy.

I'd say the Forge was one of the factors in the end of the '90s Railroading Era, aka the Dark Age of RPGs. I don't know if it was a major factor. Obviously Ron Edwards is a jerk, and many Forge games are morally contemptible. But it does influence modern game design - I bunch of stuff (that I don't play) - Leverage, Apocalypse World/Dungeon World, Fiasco, Marvel Heroic Roleplay, Spirit of the Century and other FATE stuff, etc. It even had some incoherent influence on 4e D&D. Despite Ron's personal horribleness, and his total failure to understand Simulation as an agenda, I'd say he broadly achieved what he set out to do.

S'mon · January 07, 2014, 06:25:14 AM

In terms of real-world influence, well the London Indie Games Meetup seems quite popular, it was well attended the one time I went there (got hazed, played a Storygame, it was ok). But they meet once a month; my London D&D Meetup meets four times a week.