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Author Topic: How To Fight a Forgist?  (Read 41749 times)

crkrueger

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How To Fight a Forgist?
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2014, 03:17:53 PM »
The most mainstream games that featured Forge philosophy were D&D4 and WFRP3, both of which were failures compared to previous editions.

There are a lot of new-school games that feature narrative mechanics, however, the "Father of Narrative RPGs" isn't Ron Edwards, but Greg Stafford and Robin Laws. The most current successful narrative game, Numenera, is much more Laws then Edwards.

The Forge was a radical factionalized section of gaming theory based on a misunderstanding of the Threefold Model that was as much a Cult of Personality as it was a design movement.

Did it have an impact? Yes, but that impact was a failure.  Even Baker designed his Xworld system to get away from the mechanics and designs that came out of the Forge.

However, Narrative gaming, or I should say, "Roleplaying Games" that feature a large amount of OOC mechanics whether for narrative or tactical reasons is very much a hallmark of the new school and it is troubling I think that there are no successful new games that are not new school, Next being an exception if it sells well, but still relying on the D&D name.

There is no traditional Numenera, for example.
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Zeea

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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2014, 04:02:38 PM »
The Forge was successful in getting people to think about RPG design more consciously, but I don't think the GNS model accomplished much other than help reinforce the idea that you can't please all gamers at once and need to tailor games. Which is actually what it was supposed to do, I think, but like every new idea*, people embraced it and tried to use it for _everything._

*It wasn't actually a new idea, but an old idea worded differently. It's similar to 13th Age's One Unique Thing, which is an ancient concept that I've used in most campaigns I've run since I was a kid, but got a lot of attention because it was given a special name in a popular RPG. Which is good, but also a little silly to those of us who have been using those ideas for a long time.

Enlightened

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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2014, 04:21:45 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;721331

However, Narrative gaming, or I should say, "Roleplaying Games" that feature a large amount of OOC mechanics whether for narrative or tactical reasons.

That is a very ...unique definition for narrative gaming.

Have you ever seen anyone other than you use this definition?

I've usually heard it used to mean games that value "creating a story" over "simulating physics" (regardless of Ron's original definition).

But I had never heard it used to mean "lots of OOC mechanics" before.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 05:01:32 PM by Enlightened »
 

The Traveller

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« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2014, 04:31:09 PM »
One of the most striking things to me about the children of the ron is the paucity of deep, fully realised settings.

I mean when it comes to RPG design, creating a system which enables a wide array of actions and allows characters to interact with a wide spectrum of elements in a believable way is much, much more difficult than designing the one purpose minigames beloved of the offshoot school. And all while keeping the system playable and engaging.

However even this pales in comparison to the challenge of creating a rich and compelling setting. Plus it's a crapton of work, much harder than sitting around making up jargon and defining terms. I hesitate to use the term "new school" with regard to these endeavours since they aren't really any kind of school, they're just... an offshoot...

What's a good analogy, writing is pretty close. Writers write, some dare I say most of the greatest writers in history never took a literature class. Conversely the overwhelming majority of lit/arts students don't produce anything creatively noteworthy. The offshoot school are the lit/arts students, RPG designers are the writers.

However in terms of fighting forgers I usually just throw babies at them until they go away. You'd be surprised how tenacious those little bastards can be.
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Kaiu Keiichi

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« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2014, 04:35:39 PM »
What difference does this nerd religion-bs politics mean? Absolutely none. Forgites have plenty of new games that they can have fun with. OSR folks and sim junkies have their hexcrawls. Everyone is having a great time. It's not zero sum, no one "wins" - the more games and adventures published, the better. Both sides seed each other and create hybrid products. The more fun, the better. Gamers can be forgites one game and OSR-sim heads the next. There is no gaming pope, and the success of one style does not impede the success of the other. If you object to other people's material, create your own, don't sit on your ass and whine. Don't hate, create.

Worry about your damned table, and what stuff enables you and your group to have fun. You're not gaming with these people. Arguing with anyone is just tribalist masturbation.

Also, see my sig. If you feel the need to argue, say to yourself, "Why am I being stupid?" and read it again, and get back to planning your next campaign or writing your next project.
Rules and design matter
The players are in charge
Simulation is narrative
Storygames are RPGs

thedungeondelver

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« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2014, 04:42:58 PM »
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;721316
I've met all kinds of gamers, but I've never met a Forgy in real life. I think they actually live inside the Internet somehow, perhaps something similar to the "Digital Wildlife" of Peter Watt's cyberpunk novels.  

I used to think the same thing about Furries until I actually did meet two of those (Both of whom turned out to be fine people).


You're probably right.  Sadly(??) the only internet "no-shit-there-I-was" phenomenons I've met outside of the internet are catpissmen/stinkers and creepers.

People I've met IRL who absolutely adore 3e or think Pathfinder or 4e is the bee's knees generally are at the worst dismissive about older D&Ds.   Veeeeery little to-your-face edition warring is to be had, I think, beyond the metal bawkses of the computer world.
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Mcbobbo sums it up nicely.

Quote
Astrophysicists are reassessing Einsteinian relativity because the 28 billion l

Kaiu Keiichi

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« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2014, 04:49:10 PM »
I game with some hard core story gamers, big 3E heads (my local group) and a few OSR types online. Gamers are mostly the same, I've found. They simply want to have a good time.

Remember, when you fight a Forgist, you're not having fun gaming. Go game.
Rules and design matter
The players are in charge
Simulation is narrative
Storygames are RPGs

markfitz

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« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2014, 05:13:44 PM »
I'm just glad to be able, through a few seconds searching around the internet, to meet up with real gamers again after years away. People around here (in anglo circles at least) seem to be playing a lot of 3e/Pathfinder, some Castles and Crusades, some 40K, a little Cthulhu (Call/Trail), and a touch of Fate sprinkled in. But fairly diverse, and most games proposed seem to fill up their slots pretty rapidly.

That said, I've noticed that in Paris, if you put "therpgsite" into google, the first thing that's suggested to you is "thepigsite".

Swine conspiracy?

Mistwell

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« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2014, 05:54:38 PM »
Quote from: Old Geezer;721314
Ignore him.

Okay.  BESIDES sheer crabyness (always fun) the reason you need to ignore him is this:

You can't disprove anything.

See, when I read Ron's first three essays, what I mostly got out of them (other than "Crom's hairy nutsack, this syntax is tortured") was "Know what you like, and play that."

Now, that's hardly Earthshattering, but, on the other hand, if a Forger points to ANY game that says "play what you like," and screams "AH HA, PROOF!" there's no way you can convince him/her/it/them/xu/splerg otherwise.

It's a mug's game, so don't even ante up, is what I'm saying.


That...is a damn good point.

Sacrosanct

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« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2014, 06:20:24 PM »
I never got the whole deal with storygaming and Forge theory and all that.  It wasn't interesting to me, didn't impact my gaming group, so why bother?

To each their own.
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thedungeondelver

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« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2014, 06:45:40 PM »
Quote from: Sacrosanct;721404
I never got the whole deal with storygaming and Forge theory and all that.  It wasn't interesting to me, didn't impact my gaming group, so why bother?

To each their own.


When I first heard of these guys I got caught up in a zeitgeist of OH MY GOD THEY'RE GOING TO WRECK THE HOBBY then I realized the Forge was no more going to turn RPGs into Storygames than my self-written and published AD&D modules were going to convince WotC to republish AD&...


WAIIIIIT A MINUTE HERE...!


I kid, I kid.

Anyway point being they're (storygamers) just another niche of a niche of a niche.  They're the Atari ST users of the RPG world.  Yes they have apps, yes they've published them.  No, people aren't gonna use them outside of their tiny little circle.  The end.
THE DELVERS DUNGEON


Mcbobbo sums it up nicely.

Quote
Astrophysicists are reassessing Einsteinian relativity because the 28 billion l

robiswrong

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« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2014, 06:48:07 PM »
Quote from: Enlightened;721358
That is a very ...unique definition for narrative gaming.

Have you ever seen anyone other than you use this definition?

I've usually heard it used to mean games that value "creating a story" over "simulating physics" (regardless of Ron's original definition).

But I had never heard it used to mean "lots of OOC mechanics" before.


It's a pretty common definition around these parts.

Zak S

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« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2014, 07:02:19 PM »
Quote from: Mistwell;721243
In this thread, Pemerton is a Forgist and trying to argue that The Forge was a success and a cultural movement and "the preeminent influence on contemporary RPG design."


...so: if you like the fact that new games seem to appeal even more forcefully to the 40-year-old-virgin demographic than they used to, then the Forge is your kinda place.

Seriously: who wants to die on that hill? Let him have it.
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Ladybird

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« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2014, 07:23:46 PM »
Quote from: thedungeondelver;721408
Anyway point being they're (storygamers) just another niche of a niche of a niche.  They're the Atari ST users of the RPG world.  Yes they have apps, yes they've published them.  No, people aren't gonna use them outside of their tiny little circle.  The end.


I miss my STe.

Anyway, forge theory, as with every theory, gets stupid if you dig too deeply into it. Poke about, have a look, grab the bits that seem to work for you, and leave the rest behind.
one two FUCK YOU

Ravenswing

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« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2014, 07:56:28 PM »
Grr.  I miss my Atari ST too.

But that being said ...

Like any other gaming forum -- and probably every forum since ARPANET was going great guns -- there's a bunch of people who declare themselves unique and influential, and they often attract a small ragtag band of groupies.  We're particularly prone to it in gaming, I admit ... I vividly recall a thread on TBP a dozen years ago when I was getting back into GMing where someone told me something was true Because Ryan Dancey Says So!  My response ("Who the hell is Ryan Dancey?") provoked derision from the poster: what kind of gamer could I possibly be if I Hadn't Heard Of Ryan Dancey???

Well, a gamer who'd taken a break from the hobby starting around 1995, before anyone had ever heard of the guy, for one.  Somewhat ironically, as far as I can tell, he hasn't done anything since.

I've heard similar stuff from and about the Forgeites: about how potent and influential they were, and how they were changing the face of gaming.

Sorry, I call bullshit.  Indeed, they do have their indie games out, and those indie games have their percentage point or two worth of market share.  In any line of business, that level of impact would be considered failure so abject as to be beneath any notice beyond derisive jeering.  I see no reason to consider them important on their say-so alone.

So here's my advice for the OP.  Go the Wikipedia route.  In assessing the notability of a subject, there's a rule called WP:GNG, the General Notability Guideline: that in order to be considered notable, a subject needs to be discussed in "significant detail" in multiple, reliable, third-party, independent publications with a reputation for fact checking.

And that's what you throw at them: without reference to the indie gaming press, to forums or to blogs, what mainstream publications credit the Forge with a widespread impact on RPGs?
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