Quote from: Sacrosanct;741364not with 4e.  No pretending needed.  Just a tactical knowledge of unit...er...character abilities for grid based combat. ;-)

The reason why this is coming off as very ironic to me is that a wargame like Chainmail uses a referee for the same sort of reason you would have a referee in a role playing game. The game plays are obviously different, but the reason for there to be a human referee are comparable, in that the rules are not the game, and the game isn't the sum of its rules. It saddens me to see that wargames themselves have become more and more of a closed model where all there is to do is to play within the confines of the box.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;741351Getting into melee range isn't an issue since flying creatures can only "hop" in combat. Sustained flight is called overland flight and if a creature tries to so much as chew gum while overland flying it crashes.

So the traditional flyby strafe of dragons fire doesn't happen. If a dragon wants to breathe then it must land at the end of its turn.

This convention is simply stupid and exists only because there are melee focused "builds" that couldn't meaningfully contribute at missile range due to challenge level creep.

Been a while since I played 4e, but I think this would only be true if the dragon ONLY had overland flight, and didn't have a fly movement rate. Which isn't the case with dragons.

Quote from: Benoist;741373The reason why this is coming off as very ironic to me is that a wargame like Chainmail uses a referee for the same sort of reason you would have a referee in a role playing game as well. The game plays are obviously different, but the reason for there to be a human referee are comparable, in these that the rules are not the game, and the game isn't the sum of its rules. It saddens me to see that wargames themselves have become more and more of a closed model where all there is to do is to play within the confines of the box.

It is no surprise that, due to the ALL ME ALL THE TIME culture that seems to be prevalent nowadays that finding someone who is willing to actually referee a game (whether rpg or tabletop war) is becoming more of a chore.

If its a wargame then you aren't playing= nothing in it for ME.

If its an rpg, then as a referee I can't tell the story I want, and I'm not playing so....= nothing in it for ME.

The ME culture combined with an insatiable appetite for instant gratification has ruined quite a bit of entertainment that depends on interaction with people who are not total fucktards.

Quote from: hexgrid;741375Been a while since I played 4e, but I think this would only be true if the dragon ONLY had overland flight, and didn't have a fly movement rate. Which isn't the case with dragons.

They do have a fly move rate, but during encounters a flying creature must still land at the end of its turn if it wants to do anything.

Quote from: Frundsberg;741371Has he finally achieved demonhood?

Ever get on his bad side? He is a demon then.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;741367You're showing off.  You're demonstrating the fact that you can kill this guy at will with your superior skill.  You're trying to demoralize him.

I'd treat it as a subdual attack: 25% of the damage is real and 75% is subdual damage.  When the total exceeds his hit points, he's not dead, he's bleeding and bruised and completely demoralized.  He throws down his sword and surrenders.

Another option is to skip the subdual damage part and just treat it as an attack that does no real damage, but forces a morale check.

While that is a good ruling and I will definitely be happy with it. All I wanted to know is what I have to roll to succeed in slashing a Z in his chest so I can go "AH-HA!"  

Quote from: estar;741381Ever get on his bad side? He is a demon then.

The worse kind: a demon taking the piss on your shoes and asking you to tongue his pee hole while so doing.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;741367Another option is to skip the subdual damage part and just treat it as an attack that does no real damage, but forces a morale check.

I think having Zorro carve Z into your chest oughtta permanently lower your Charisma by a few points... not so much that other folks will see it but YOU will know it's there... very demoralizing.
Then again, if you live to tell the tale, maybe not.

Quote from: JeremyR;741336Someone like Bruce Lee?

OD&D supports this.

Player: I leap up and high kick the orc.
Referee: Roll to Hit
Player: 18!
Referee: Your fighter nails the orc right in the center of the chest.
Referee: Roll 1d6 for damage.
Player: 5!
Referee: The orc falls down with his chest caved in.

Now before you get upset there are good reasons why products like GURPS Martial Arts exist. Because those rules provide the detail that distinguish between a Karate Kick, a Judo Kick, and a Tae Kwan Do kick. Which for some groups and some campaigns are important.

Quote from: estarNow before you get upset there are good reasons why products like GURPS Martial Arts exist. Because those rules provide the detail that distinguish between a Karate Kick, a Judo Kick, and a Tae Kwan Do kick. Which for some groups and some campaigns are important.

I think this is the crux of it.  The reason some new school players find OD&D fighters lack-lustre or "less unique" is that there's much less built-in granularity and detail in OD&D combat than in newer editions.  Unusual and interesting moves are reliant on DM rulings, which by their nature are going to be inconsistent from game to game and mechanically unpredictable - like, it may not be clear on the face of it how a referee is going to interpret a given move or action, mechanically, which in turn means that meaningful tactical choices becomes more difficult, and not in the good way.

Hardly a revelatory statement, but I don't think this critique of OD&D (that it lacks the built-in/codified tactical granularity of newer editions) is in any way blunted by typing "Do unique things as a fighter" in progressively larger letters.

Quote from: estar;741342You are refereeing OD&D

Player: I want to carve a Z in the guard's chest.

How do you rule?

Roll to hit then make a Dex check if successful you did it and roll for damage (I will describe the awesomeness). Move on.

Quote from: Steerpike;741390I think this is the crux of it.  The reason some new school players find OD&D fighters lack-lustre or "less unique" is that there's much less built-in granularity and detail in OD&D combat than in newer editions.  Unusual and interesting moves are reliant on DM rulings, which by their nature are going to be inconsistent from game to game and mechanically unpredictable - like, it may not be clear on the face of it how a referee is going to interpret a given move or action, mechanically, which in turn means that meaningful tactical choices becomes more difficult, and not in the good way.

I don't see how DM rulings are by their very nature going to be inconsistent from game to game and mechanically unpredictable. It seems to me that inconsistency and unpredictability are predicated on the DM sucking in the first place, which is not a given, whereas people new to DMing learn from their mistakes and become better with time. When in doubt, asking a question is always an option. This is a game where communication matters.

Quote from: hexgrid;741375Been a while since I played 4e, but I think this would only be true if the dragon ONLY had overland flight, and didn't have a fly movement rate. Which isn't the case with dragons.

Or the dm can have a dragon fly and strafe to its heart's content.
The gimped dragon stat blocks are just a basis to start with.

Quote from: estar;741343Summoning Old Geezer. How did the group deal with locked doors, sneaking around, and climbing walls when the need arises prior to whenever Greyhawk got released?

By killing stupid ass players who say things like "The thief was invented because there were no rules for doing thief stuff and people wanted to do it."

That is so fucking far from what actually happened that the light from what actually happened will not reach it until a billion eternities after the heat death of the universe.

"If there are no rules for it you can't do it" has to die screaming in horrible agony as I hold its face in the fire.

I think there's a very strong point here, that at some point "how to be unique" went from "what you did with the character" to "what unique mechanical widgets do you have?"

I blame Drizz't.  Fucking Drizz't.