Also, for those who want the source documents for the neo-Aztec revival: https://christopherrufo.com/revenge-of-the-gods/

I have some indigenous ancestry myself (not Mesoamerican, but it's not like that matters to the woke), and I am offended on behalf of my long dead ancestors that their basic humanity (especially the capacity for good, evil, and critical thinking) is being denied by these historical revisionists.

The Aztecs built cities and pyramids, wrote books, and so forth. You think they did that in the absence of capitalism? As with every other civilization that invented writing, they invented writing to perform mathematics and to keep track of taxes. They had commerce for centuries before anybody arrived from Europe.

It's fucking offensive to the humanity of Latinos to assume their ancestors couldn't invent capitalism outside of European influence.

Sure, the Europeans committed tons of genocide and that was awful. Doesn't mean indigenous shit don't stink too.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 02:08:03 PM
Also, for those who want the source documents for the neo-Aztec revival: https://christopherrufo.com/revenge-of-the-gods/

I have some indigenous ancestry myself (not Mesoamerican, but it's not like that matters to the woke), and I am offended on behalf of my long dead ancestors that their basic humanity (especially the capacity for good, evil, and critical thinking) is being denied by these historical revisionists.

The Aztecs built cities and pyramids, wrote books, and so forth. You think they did that in the absence of capitalism? As with every other civilization that invented writing, they invented writing to perform mathematics and to keep track of taxes. They had commerce for centuries before anybody arrived from Europe.

It's fucking offensive to the humanity of Latinos to assume their ancestors couldn't invent capitalism outside of European influence.

Sure, the Europeans committed tons of genocide and that was awful. Doesn't mean indigenous shit don't stink too.

The Aztecs were very busy commiting genocide to power the Sun too. Practicing ritual cannibalism, slavery, and imperialism, as were the people that came before them and the ones before those ad infinitum.

Nobody's shit smell like roses period.

And to our beloved lefties I'm Maya, born and raised in México, you don't have the right to be offended on my behalf.

Quote from: Gagarth on March 31, 2021, 01:22:57 PM
RPG.net is a cult

Yeah, the cult of narcissistic validation. These zoomers don't really care about the philosophy of their causes, they want others to validate their narcissism.

In general, I don't disagree that marketing for Coyote & Crow has lots of buzzwords and signaling for liberals. On the other hand, it seems like hating on Coyote & Crow seems to be the virtue signaling here on this forum -- including bringing up all sorts of shit that isn't in the preview or even relevant for the game.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 01:45:01 PM

Quote from: Gagarth on March 31, 2021, 01:15:19 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 30, 2021, 05:21:01 PM
As for Europeans, it is left undefined what happened to the rest of the world, including Europe. GMs can define for themselves. The only thing specified in the game is that no one has contacted the Americas at the start of the game.

QuoteIf you have a problem with a game where there are no people of European descent represented, than this game is probably not for you.

Wasn't this explicit enough for you?

I assumed it was just typical nonsensical virtue signaling woke talking points, not a explicit statement that white people were wiped out. They don't specifically mention people of African or Asian descent, even though they're not represented in the game either.

Yeah, that was my reading. "Represented in the game" is different from "exists at all in the world". I would say that Europeans aren't represented in Sengoku and Asians aren't represented in Pendragon - but that doesn't mean that Asia was wiped out in the world of Pendragon or that Europe was wiped out in the world of Sengoku. In the Q&A, the author says:

QuoteSecond, it creates a scenario where we can leave it to the players and Story Guides to decide what's on the other continents, what's happened to them and why no one has heard from them.

Source: https://gmshoe.wordpress.com/2021/01/27/qa-connor-alexander-derek-pounds-coyote-and-crow/

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 01:45:01 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 31, 2021, 01:20:35 PM
I wonder how many spellpoints the spellcasters in Crow & Coyote will get for ritually sacrificing the children of rival tribes to Huitzilopochtli?

Oh please. We all know the woke are going to whitewash the human sacrifice and present their revisionist neo-Aztec religion as a religion of peace that has more in common with Wicca than the real Aztec religion. Or even the modern Mesoamerican religion(s) which syncretizes Spanish Catholicism with indigenous beliefs.

At least until the Islamofacists start demanding that everyone worship God. Then we can probably expect the neo-Aztecs to start sacrificing the monotheists.

As far as I see, there is no magic system in Coyote & Crow. This is a science fantasy game set around 2100 with psionic powers like clairvoyance and such, and only optional supernatural elements like monsters. I don't think problems of 1500s-era Native American societies are any more a part of it than 1500s-era European slavery is relevant for Cyberpunk.

Quote from: jhkim on March 31, 2021, 03:58:10 PM
In general, I don't disagree that marketing for Coyote & Crow has lots of buzzwords and signaling for liberals. On the other hand, it seems like hating on Coyote & Crow seems to be the virtue signaling here on this forum -- including bringing up all sorts of shit that isn't in the preview or even relevant for the game.

Man, your deflection gets old.

QuoteWe have a diverse team of folks working on this game, most of whom are Native. Additionally, we are striving to bring in other marginalized voices whenever possible. Our team features people from across the LGBTQIA spectrum, including two spirit folks. It's not even a question that this game is political. If you have a problem with a game where there are no people of European descent represented, than this game is probably not for you. That said, we've truly built this game to be played by everyone. It might seem like a big leap, but don't worry, we're going to hold your hand the whole way through and you'll be so happy you stepped off the edge into this vibrant fresh world.

This is blatant leftist authoritarian identity politics. Hard pass, and I'm sure they won't miss my evil, Nazi, white, colonial hegemonic ass.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 01:45:01 PM

Quote from: Reckall on March 31, 2021, 12:01:42 PM
In "Europa Universalis 4" you can start as a Native American tribe and discover the wonders of all-out warfare in pre-Colombian America (the Inca Empire, BTW, was in the middle of a civil war when the Spaniards arrived). The next expansion, "Leviathan", will flesh out even more the "corners of the World", like the island-dwellers in the Pacific (hint: island-hopping warfare was not invented in WWII) and others. I can't wait for it.

Of course EU4 is the game where you can run a slave trade like the... uhm... slave trading nations did. Even worse, these nations are not limited to Europe: you can run this kind of trade while playing as an African Empire. I'm amazed by how no one has yet denounced these "problematic" contents...

Because nobody is stupid enough to outright state that they don't believe non-white people engaged in slavery because they know it will result in them losing credibility among the general public?

These are people who consider separating a deep one from her beloved god Cthulhu an evil act of oppression. Or that raised hell when Gal Gadot was running for the role of Cleopatra because [screech]The role belongs to an Egyptian!!!!11[/screech] (Cleopatra was a member of the Greek dynasty).

Don't underestimate their stupidity. To see how deep it is you only have to give them enough rope.

And Extra Credits has just published a video written by James Mendez Hodes on "how evil races are bad game design." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymUEPKTEQaQ

They literally open by comparing black people to orcs and claiming that black people are stereotyped as "ugly, warlike, and malevolent." Who the fuck is promoting stereotypes like that? In modern Western society, half the population thinks that black people are a persecuted minority of perfect angels who needs protecting from the mean ol' dead white European man. Everybody else thinks they're just people, and barely anybody questions their basic humanity. White people are most often characterized as "ugly, warlike, and malevolent" under critical race theory.

Orcs are obviously most comparable to lower class white people. They even speak Cockney! Fight me. /sarcasm

Quote from: Reckall on March 31, 2021, 04:25:51 PM
These are people who consider separating a deep one from her beloved god Cthulhu an evil act of oppression.

It's fiction. Whether it's oppressive or not is entirely up to the author and how they characterize fish people.

I personally think it's more interesting to point out the parallels between Jesus and Cthulhu.

Quote from: Reckall on March 31, 2021, 04:25:51 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 01:45:01 PM

Quote from: Reckall on March 31, 2021, 12:01:42 PM
In "Europa Universalis 4" you can start as a Native American tribe and discover the wonders of all-out warfare in pre-Colombian America (the Inca Empire, BTW, was in the middle of a civil war when the Spaniards arrived). The next expansion, "Leviathan", will flesh out even more the "corners of the World", like the island-dwellers in the Pacific (hint: island-hopping warfare was not invented in WWII) and others. I can't wait for it.

Of course EU4 is the game where you can run a slave trade like the... uhm... slave trading nations did. Even worse, these nations are not limited to Europe: you can run this kind of trade while playing as an African Empire. I'm amazed by how no one has yet denounced these "problematic" contents...

Because nobody is stupid enough to outright state that they don't believe non-white people engaged in slavery because they know it will result in them losing credibility among the general public?

These are people who consider separating a deep one from her beloved god Cthulhu an evil act of oppression. Or that raised hell when Gal Gadot was running for the role of Cleopatra because [screech]The role belongs to an Egyptian!!!!11[/screech] (Cleopatra was a member of the Greek dynasty).

Don't underestimate their stupidity. To see how deep it is you only have to give them enough rope.

The scream was that it belonged to a black wahmen of color, the real reason was because she's a jew and served in the Israely army, therefor she's a bad person. You ask them and most believe Jews are behind everything, the BlueQ is way worst than the QAnon.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 05:45:00 PM
And Extra Credits has just published a video written by James Mendez Hodes on "how evil races are bad game design." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymUEPKTEQaQ

Amazing. They got plastered by... the Internet for their video about "If you play a Nazi in Call of Duty you become a Nazi" and they learned nothing. 

(It was maybe the first time ever that the whole of the Internet came together as a single voice)

Quote from: Reckall on March 31, 2021, 04:25:51 PM
These are people who consider separating a deep one from her beloved god Cthulhu an evil act of oppression.

It's fiction. Whether it's oppressive or not is entirely up to the author and how they characterize fish people.

Sure, taking a famous literary universe and upending it is always fun. As I mentioned, you can imagine that Sherlock Holmes was a moron and Watson was the real genius. "Cthulhu is not evil, only misunderstood, like Godzilla!" could lead to a good yarn.

But the writer who wrote that passage had something else in mind: to "Reclaim the Mythos from that Lovecraft racist." What she wrote, nose firmly up, was the correct interpretation of the Mythos. If you disagree you are a racist too.

Interestingly enough, I bought the book only to abandon it one third in. Not because I disagreed with the basic idea (well, I totally did but I gave it a chance) but because it sucked golf balls through a water cane. I was nothing more than trashy fan fiction. I wonder if the wokeism of the author and the end result in terms of sheer quality of the writing are tied...

Well, there is a kernel of truth to the overblown "the media you consume affects your thoughts." Watching misogynistic pornography makes watchers more misogynistic, watching suicide romanticism makes depressed people more likely to commit suicide, and rampant objectification of women in media makes young women more likely to develop eating disorders and/or gender dysphoria.

However, it's also established that being aware of one's susceptibility to suggestion makes one more resistant to it. That's why cults are selective about who they target for conversion and single out vulnerable people who are more susceptible to suggestion.

On the other hand, all of those things are firmly rooted in the life experiences of the consumers. Your mind can't draw moral messages from something completely outside the context of the world you live. And we see that in folklore, where everything is meant to provide some obvious moral message. Beauty and the Beast (the original version, not that Disney stuff) is supposed to teach women not to judge their husbands on appearance, because hubby might be an abuse victim who just needs love and kindness. Stories of lamias and kishis are warnings against falling prey to sexual predators and serial killers.

What moral messages is killing orcs supposed to teach? They're not a metaphor for anything real. PCs kill them because they're mooks and that's how the game is made. You might as well be arguing that chess is badly designed because you "kill" pieces by taking them off the game board. Or that battleship games whatever...

But that's all irrelevant to the woke. They're only doing this because they want to deconstruct civilization into oblivion.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 06:51:54 PM
Well, there is a kernel of truth to the overblown "the media you consume affects your thoughts." Watching misogynistic pornography makes watchers more misogynistic, watching suicide romanticism makes depressed people more likely to commit suicide, and rampant objectification of women in media makes young women more likely to develop eating disorders and/or gender dysphoria.

However, it's also established that being aware of one's susceptibility to suggestion makes one more resistant to it. That's why cults are selective about who they target for conversion and single out vulnerable people who are more susceptible to suggestion.

On the other hand, all of those things are firmly rooted in the life experiences of the consumers. Your mind can't draw moral messages from something completely outside the context of the world you live. And we see that in folklore, where everything is meant to provide some obvious moral message. Beauty and the Beast (the original version, not that Disney stuff) is supposed to teach women not to judge their husbands on appearance, because hubby might be an abuse victim who just needs love and kindness. Stories of lamias and kishis are warnings against falling prey to sexual predators and serial killers.

What moral messages is killing orcs supposed to teach? They're not a metaphor for anything real. PCs kill them because they're mooks and that's how the game is made. You might as well be arguing that chess is badly designed because you "kill" pieces by taking them off the game board. Or that battleship games whatever...

But that's all irrelevant to the woke. They're only doing this because they want to deconstruct civilization into oblivion.

Except the longitudinal study about videogames-violence proves you wrong.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 06:51:54 PM
However, it's also established that being aware of one's susceptibility to suggestion makes one more resistant to it. That's why cults are selective about who they target for conversion and single out vulnerable people who are more susceptible to suggestion.

IMHO, this is why "Midsommar" is a great movie. It showed just that, in front of your eyes and in real time. And I'm scared by the number of people who think that "Midsommar" had an happy ending... 

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 06:51:54 PMWhat moral messages is killing orcs supposed to teach? They're not a metaphor for anything real.

Much as I love Tolkien, I suspect that what is to blame for this perpetual conflation is his portrayal of orcs (and especially the half-orc thugs in the Shire, near the end of ROTK) as using deliberately "dumbed down" speech patterns when compared to the eloquence of the heroic characters. There's a quote from Appendix F which I have always remembered ever since I first read it:

QuoteOrcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find. Much the same sort of talk can still be heard among the orc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigor, save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong.

This is an unsurprising perspective given Tolkien's love of language. However, if one uses verbal and literary eloquence as a proxy marker for education level, which in turn serves as a proxy marker for general social class (look at how much Sharkey's thugs, or the trolls Bilbo encounters in The Hobbit, sound almost exactly like the modern-day "chav"), it's not too much of a reach to suggest that the Foul Folk (orcs, trolls, goblins, ogres and the like) can be read as allegorical stand-ins for "Those People" -- the ones who'll send property values plummeting once they move into the neighbourhood, and from whom it's ultimately futile to expect civilized, peaceful coexistence because they either don't understand those terms or don't share "Our Kind's" definition of them.

What the modern SJP ironically fails to realize is that this dynamic is pretty much independent of race, and tends much more to be about class and culture: any ethnic group can be Those People in the right context, and both Men and Dwarves have their moments of being Those People to the Elves in The Silmarillion.

Quote from: Reckall on March 31, 2021, 06:58:47 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 06:51:54 PM
However, it's also established that being aware of one's susceptibility to suggestion makes one more resistant to it. That's why cults are selective about who they target for conversion and single out vulnerable people who are more susceptible to suggestion.

IMHO, this is why "Midsommar" is a great movie. It showed just that, in front of your eyes and in real time. And I'm scared by the number of people who think that "Midsommar" had an happy ending... 

There are people who thought it had a happy ending?  Please tell me you are kidding,,,

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2021, 06:56:46 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 06:51:54 PM
Well, there is a kernel of truth to the overblown "the media you consume affects your thoughts." Watching misogynistic pornography makes watchers more misogynistic, watching suicide romanticism makes depressed people more likely to commit suicide, and rampant objectification of women in media makes young women more likely to develop eating disorders and/or gender dysphoria.

However, it's also established that being aware of one's susceptibility to suggestion makes one more resistant to it. That's why cults are selective about who they target for conversion and single out vulnerable people who are more susceptible to suggestion.

On the other hand, all of those things are firmly rooted in the life experiences of the consumers. Your mind can't draw moral messages from something completely outside the context of the world you live. And we see that in folklore, where everything is meant to provide some obvious moral message. Beauty and the Beast (the original version, not that Disney stuff) is supposed to teach women not to judge their husbands on appearance, because hubby might be an abuse victim who just needs love and kindness. Stories of lamias and kishis are warnings against falling prey to sexual predators and serial killers.

What moral messages is killing orcs supposed to teach? They're not a metaphor for anything real. PCs kill them because they're mooks and that's how the game is made. You might as well be arguing that chess is badly designed because you "kill" pieces by taking them off the game board. Or that battleship games whatever...

But that's all irrelevant to the woke. They're only doing this because they want to deconstruct civilization into oblivion.

Except the longitudinal study about videogames-violence proves you wrong.

I specifically wasn't talking about video games. I know that video games don't cause violence. I should have mentioned that. I was talking about other things.

You can't take the video game study and then apply its conclusions to everything else. That's not how science works.

Here are links to some relevant articles and books pointing to studies corroborating the specific things I mentioned (i.e. porn contributing to misogyny, suicide romanticism contributing to suicide, objectification contributing to eating disorders and body dysphoria in women):
https://www.ajc.com/news/world/what-causes-misogynistic-thinking-new-study-finds-link-with-early-exposure-pornography/SsC96R4MGfcvXzmqzkOJhL/
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2019/release-of-13-reasons-why-associated-with-increase-in-youth-suicide-rates.shtml
https://www.verywellmind.com/media-influence-on-disordered-eating-1138266
https://www.amazon.com/Irreversible-Damage-Transgender-Seducing-Daughters/dp/1684510317

Quote from: Reckall on March 31, 2021, 06:58:47 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 06:51:54 PM
However, it's also established that being aware of one's susceptibility to suggestion makes one more resistant to it. That's why cults are selective about who they target for conversion and single out vulnerable people who are more susceptible to suggestion.

IMHO, this is why "Midsommar" is a great movie. It showed just that, in front of your eyes and in real time. And I'm scared by the number of people who think that "Midsommar" had an happy ending... 

I haven't seen that movie yet. I plan to.

Quote from: Reckall on March 31, 2021, 06:24:20 PM
Sure, taking a famous literary universe and upending it is always fun. As I mentioned, you can imagine that Sherlock Holmes was a moron and Watson was the real genius. "Cthulhu is not evil, only misunderstood, like Godzilla!" could lead to a good yarn.

But the writer who wrote that passage had something else in mind: to "Reclaim the Mythos from that Lovecraft racist." What she wrote, nose firmly up, was the correct interpretation of the Mythos. If you disagree you are a racist too.

Interestingly enough, I bought the book only to abandon it one third in. Not because I disagreed with the basic idea (well, I totally did but I gave it a chance) but because it sucked golf balls through a water cane. I was nothing more than trashy fan fiction. I wonder if the wokeism of the author and the end result in terms of sheer quality of the writing are tied...

Well, in that case she sounds like a snob. You might be interested in reading her reviews of other fiction involving the deep ones, since they seem a bit hypocritical in that regard. She positively reviews stories where the fishmen are evil or engage in unethical behavior.

https://www.tor.com/2014/09/23/hp-lovecraft-reread-the-shadow-over-innsmouth/
https://www.tor.com/2016/05/18/i-knew-the-dame-was-trouble-when-i-saw-her-gills-kim-newmans-the-big-fish/
https://www.tor.com/2016/08/31/a-case-study-in-interspecies-research-ethics-seanan-mcguires-down-deep-down-below-the-waves/
https://www.tor.com/2016/12/07/flipper-cthulhu-sitting-in-a-tree-james-wades-the-deep-ones/

To quote:

QuoteI'm picky about Deep One stories. Really, really picky. On the one hand, I have strong opinions about "Shadow Over Innsmouth." My sympathies are always and ever with people who get shoved into concentration camps on the strength of unsubstantiated rumor. And Zadok Allen, 96-year-old town drunk, is as unsubstantiating as rumor-mongers come. On the other hand, if Deep Ones are jus' plain folks with gills, why bother? These are, after all, people who are going to dwell amidst wonder and glory forever in many-columned Y'ha-nthlei. The sea is liminal, ineffable, beyond human scale. Something of that has to rub off on its denizens.

I have, therefore, no patience with stories in which Deep Ones are always-chaotic-evil child-sacrificing, puppy-kicking freaks. And I have little interest in stories where you could slot in any random aquatic humanoid in place of Dagon's beloved children, without changing anything else. And... I absolutely adore this week's story. "Down, Deep Down" walks its fine line with beauty and grace, and the sort of shivery, human-humbling comfort that I most desire from a good horror story.

I thought the point of her story was that the deep ones were just people with gills. If they're not and behave in decidedly unethical ways, then that makes them decidedly unsympathetic. If you're telling a horror story, then that's fine... but I thought the whole point was to make the deep ones sympathetic?

For comparison, the protagonist of Call of the Sea is sympathetic. She never once does anything unethical in her life, and indeed knowingly endangers herself for the sake of others.

For comparison, the only reason why "The Black Brat of Dunwich" still works as a horror story despite making Wilbur the protagonist is that it still keeps Wizard Whateley as a deranged apocalypse cultist and now depicts Wilbur as the protagonist of a body horror story (as in, he's fucking terrified of what he's turning into).

I just don't understand Emrys. I'm the sort of person who thinks you can make the devouring swarm scifi archetype vaguely sympathetic without making them morally "good" as with the Vang novels and the Overmind in Starcraft. I still can't understand what she's trying to accomplish here.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 31, 2021, 07:28:00 PM
What the modern SJP ironically fails to realize is that this dynamic is pretty much independent of race, and tends much more to be about class and culture: any ethnic group can be Those People in the right context, and both Men and Dwarves have their moments of being Those People to the Elves in The Silmarillion.

Exactly. This is why they're now treating white people as Those People without a hint of self-awareness. SJW make such a huge deal about how much white people hate the Other and yet they fail to notice that they're immediately turning around and treating white people as the Other. Projection and everything.