Quote from: Samsquantch on March 16, 2021, 02:10:03 PM

Quote from: Arkansan on March 16, 2021, 02:46:40 AM

Quote from: Lunamancer on March 15, 2021, 11:41:30 PM
The question is, were tabletop RPGs ever in the control of bigots and jerks? And my answer is, not in my experience. I appreciate that others may have had different experiences. And to them, my question is, why do you hang out with so many bigots and jerks? Like is it just low self-esteem, or is it more of a birds of a feather thing? Either way, I won't be lectured by such people.

The very idea that anyone was ever in control of tabletop RPGs is farcical. Tabletop RPGs are so decentralized by their very nature that I can't conceive a way you could truly control them. Every table I've played at has been different, as has every one I've run to one degree or another. This is just a perversion of the classic appeal to the past for justification, instead of saying "it must be this way because it once was" they say "it must be this way because it was not".

I honestly believe its all lies and made up. The only person I have ever personally known in 40 years of gaming that has reported any kind of bigotry or exclusion is one of my current players who is female and wanted to play at school and the boys wouldn't let her. One person in 40 years. That of course doesn't mean it didn't happen to anyone else but I doubt it is nearly as widespread as they want the public to believe.

There's always gonna be 'that guy' but these claims that gaming was infested with evil racist bigots are just trash.

As you said, most groups would welcome ANYONE as long as they weren't complete assclowns. But if that's the case, then this whole crusade falls apart, and people would wonder what the motivation is to 'purge the unclean' from RPGs.

Quote from: Samsquantch on March 16, 2021, 02:05:40 PMIn the 80's we took anyone we could and only kicked out assholes for being assholes. Nothing's changed since. I think I'm not very good at being a bigot like they say I should be.

Yeah, the jerks were infrequent and rare.  And didn't last, because we uninvited them pretty quick.  Conventions, you were more likely to get abrasive players or basement dwellers because you were playing with strangers without even any time to get to know them first, but even then, it wasn't like "one at every table".

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 16, 2021, 02:12:40 PM

Quote from: Samsquantch on March 16, 2021, 02:10:03 PM

Quote from: Arkansan on March 16, 2021, 02:46:40 AM

Quote from: Lunamancer on March 15, 2021, 11:41:30 PM
The question is, were tabletop RPGs ever in the control of bigots and jerks? And my answer is, not in my experience. I appreciate that others may have had different experiences. And to them, my question is, why do you hang out with so many bigots and jerks? Like is it just low self-esteem, or is it more of a birds of a feather thing? Either way, I won't be lectured by such people.

The very idea that anyone was ever in control of tabletop RPGs is farcical. Tabletop RPGs are so decentralized by their very nature that I can't conceive a way you could truly control them. Every table I've played at has been different, as has every one I've run to one degree or another. This is just a perversion of the classic appeal to the past for justification, instead of saying "it must be this way because it once was" they say "it must be this way because it was not".

I honestly believe its all lies and made up. The only person I have ever personally known in 40 years of gaming that has reported any kind of bigotry or exclusion is one of my current players who is female and wanted to play at school and the boys wouldn't let her. One person in 40 years. That of course doesn't mean it didn't happen to anyone else but I doubt it is nearly as widespread as they want the public to believe.

There's always gonna be 'that guy' but these claims that gaming was infested with evil racist bigots are just trash.

As you said, most groups would welcome ANYONE as long as they weren't complete assclowns. But if that's the case, then this whole crusade falls apart, and people would wonder what the motivation is to 'purge the unclean' from RPGs.

More people would realize their motivation - and notice their target.

Any group I've been a part of have never excluded anyone unless the person was a total asshat.  I've been playing since the mid 80s, I've not run into one player who ever advocated not letting somebody play because of race, gender, etc.

I've come across players who were straight out racists.  And everyone else in the club thought they were dicks.  So they ended up drifting away and forming their own little gaming group.  It's hardly a wave of bogotry within the hobby.

"Not all tabletop RPGs carry the same emotional weight, and there's a big difference between running a group of friends through Storm King's Thunder in Dungeons & Dragons and running through an apocalyptic horror game like Fate of Cthulhu. Games like Fate of Cthulhu, Vampire: The Masquerade, and Numenera are edgier than their high fantasy counterparts, and that's part of the appeal. The mature themes are built in, and aren't always used empathetically by players and storytellers. Consent warnings are coming into vogue in these games and are long overdue, given the mature themes and tendency to push players into uncomfortable places. "

I thought this paragraph from the article in the OP was pretty funny.  It is so obviously written by a journalist who hasn't done the most rudimentary of research on the topic but is desperately trying to sound like they have.  It's quite painful.

Also Numenera being edgy?  Numenera?. I like Numenera. I actually have an on-off campaign of Numenera at my club.  But edgy it is not.  Numenera is about as edgy as a beach ball.

Bonus fail points because let's be fair, Numenera is solidly high fantasy with the serial numbers filed off.

 

Quote from: Visitor Q on March 17, 2021, 09:45:31 PM
Also Numenera being edgy?  Numenera?. I like Numenera. I actually have an on-off campaign of Numenera at my club.  But edgy it is not.  Numemnera is about as edgy as a beach ball. 

I almost burst out laughing when I read that.  Yea, any credibility in the article at that point sort of took a tailspin.

Yea, we had a few who were a bit over-excited in groups but that was probably largely in part as this was their brief opportunity to come out of any reclusive social shell they had built up.  Never encountered anything approaching the distasteful things mentioned that the 'community' is thankfully going to be protected against now.

Quote from: Visitor Q on March 17, 2021, 09:45:31 PM
Consent warnings are coming into vogue in these games and are long overdue, given the mature themes and tendency to push players into uncomfortable places. "

I thought this paragraph from the article in the OP was pretty funny.  It is so obviously written by a journalist who hasn't done the most rudimentary of research on the topic but is desperately trying to sound like they have.  It's quite painful.
[Iquote]
Also Numenera being edgy?  Numenera?. I like Numenera. I actually have an on-off campaign of Numenera at my club.  But edgy it is not.  Numemnera is about as edgy as a beach ball. 

Also... a "consent warning" for a game that states how you are a Vampire in a bleak and dangerous setting both in its own very title and the description in the back? Didn't you buy it? Didn't your GM explained what his idea for a new gaming experience was? Any "consent warning" needed is already built in these two pre-game activities since forever.

And if the GM wants to be an ass and push the game "beyond the edgy" (OK, punny, sorry), for example by dropping out of the blue the idea that all Vampires don't need blood but to rape the victims, just ditch him.

So you are playing vampire, as a vampire, you know, a predator who drinks human blood (do the humans consent to this?) and suddenly we must sign consent forms to include certain themes...seems stupid, like making divers sign consent forms to get wet.

As I have stated before, 99 percent of this shit can be managed in a Session Zero discussion where everyone understands the themes involved.

I think what they want is to be able to shut down a game when they don't like how it's going, who's playing, etc.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 18, 2021, 08:25:41 AM
As I have stated before, 99 percent of this shit can be managed in a Session Zero discussion where everyone understands the themes involved.

I think what they want is to be able to shut down a game when they don't like how it's going, who's playing, etc.

"When everyone at the table has the power of the GM, then no one does."

Quote from: Lunamancer on March 15, 2021, 11:41:30 PM
The question is, were tabletop RPGs ever in the control of bigots and jerks? And my answer is, not in my experience. I appreciate that others may have had different experiences. And to them, my question is, why do you hang out with so many bigots and jerks? Like is it just low self-esteem, or is it more of a birds of a feather thing? Either way, I won't be lectured by such people.

Same.  To be fair, though, it is not as if this pattern is unique to questions of bigots and jerks.  It's the same with every possible dysfunctional behavior at RPG tables, both real and merely imagined.  Plus a lot of things that aren't even necessarily dysfunctional, just different.  Catpiss guy?  GM with god complex?  "Too much story" guy?  "Not enough story" guy?  And so on, and on, and on.

I can't count the number of times that someone on an RPG forum has stated categorically that something that worked at my table was impossible.  When you bother to dig, it is nearly always because that the person making the statement can't do the thing or only hangs around with other people that can't do the thing.  (Occasionally, it is because the person is a relative novice at RPGs and is engaging in hyperbole about something they haven't quite grasped yet.)

Quote from: RandyB on March 18, 2021, 08:34:22 AM


"When everyone at the table has the power of the GM, then no one does."

Which has zero to negative impact on Session Zero.

Having such a session does in no way shape or form take away power from the DM, it's to establish what kind of campaigns both players and DMs want to run as well as setting boundaries.

Quote from: sureshot on March 18, 2021, 09:01:23 AM

Quote from: RandyB on March 18, 2021, 08:34:22 AM


"When everyone at the table has the power of the GM, then no one does."

Which had zero to negative impact on Session Zero.

Having such a session does in no way shape or form take away power from the DM, it's to establish what kind of campaigns both players and DMs want to run as well as setting boundaries.

  I suspect RandyB was referring to the second part of the quoted post--about anyone being "able to shut down a game when they don't like how it's going, who's playing, etc."

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 18, 2021, 09:04:48 AM

Quote from: sureshot on March 18, 2021, 09:01:23 AM

Quote from: RandyB on March 18, 2021, 08:34:22 AM


"When everyone at the table has the power of the GM, then no one does."

Which had zero to negative impact on Session Zero.

Having such a session does in no way shape or form take away power from the DM, it's to establish what kind of campaigns both players and DMs want to run as well as setting boundaries.

  I suspect RandyB was referring to the second part of the quoted post--about anyone being "able to shut down a game when they don't like how it's going, who's playing, etc."

That was my reaction and he's absolutely correct.

There are people out there who feel they have so little control in their lives, they scrabble for anything they can glom onto with both hands, just to have something they can directly affect.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 18, 2021, 09:04:48 AM

Quote from: sureshot on March 18, 2021, 09:01:23 AM

Quote from: RandyB on March 18, 2021, 08:34:22 AM


"When everyone at the table has the power of the GM, then no one does."

Which had zero to negative impact on Session Zero.

Having such a session does in no way shape or form take away power from the DM, it's to establish what kind of campaigns both players and DMs want to run as well as setting boundaries.

  I suspect RandyB was referring to the second part of the quoted post--about anyone being "able to shut down a game when they don't like how it's going, who's playing, etc."

Correct.

And for the record, I am a proponent of Session Zero. It's no panacea, but if done well, it absolutely can address any genuine issues and prevent many problems. It's well worth the time and effort.