When dnd5e newb gamers are aghast about keeping track of arrows, it shows they've been taught wrong about the most fundamental underlying structure of what #ttrpg play is for.

Eh, depends on what you're gaming for.

Do you keep track of Batarangs and gas cylinders for his grapple gun when you're running Batman in a four-color superhero RPG?

Is there a single line of text in "The Lord of Rings" devoted to how many arrows Legolas had left in his quiver?

If you're interested in running a dungeon-crawl resource management game where xp is based almost exclusively on how much treasure you can carry out of the dungeon, then sure, tracking every last arrow and ration bar makes sense. You could also throw Palladium-style armor damage, weapon maintenance on top too and rolling for the condition of each arrow after its fired.

If you're running a campaign about brave adventurers seeking to infiltrate the blood priest's tower before he has finished his doomsday ritual, caring about the precise arrow count isn't generally seen as all that interesting.

Short-version: There is no one objectively best way to play a Fantasy RPG no matter how many videos you make claiming there is.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 02, 2020, 11:50:33 AM
Is there a single line of text in "The Lord of Rings" devoted to how many arrows Legolas had left in his quiver?

"'And I,' said Legolas, 'will take all the arrows that I can find, for my quiver is empty.' He searched in the pile on the ground about and found not a few that were undamaged and longer in the shaft than such arrows as the Orcs were accustomed to use."
-Two Towers

[/Tolkien pedant]

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 02, 2020, 11:50:33 AMShort-version: There is no one objectively best way to play a Fantasy RPG no matter how many videos you make claiming there is.

This.

/thread

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 02, 2020, 11:50:33 AM
Eh, depends on what you're gaming for.

Do you keep track of Batarangs and gas cylinders for his grapple gun when you're running Batman in a four-color superhero RPG?

Is there a single line of text in "The Lord of Rings" devoted to how many arrows Legolas had left in his quiver?

If you're interested in running a dungeon-crawl resource management game where xp is based almost exclusively on how much treasure you can carry out of the dungeon, then sure, tracking every last arrow and ration bar makes sense. You could also throw Palladium-style armor damage, weapon maintenance on top too and rolling for the condition of each arrow after its fired.

If you're running a campaign about brave adventurers seeking to infiltrate the blood priest's tower before he has finished his doomsday ritual, caring about the precise arrow count isn't generally seen as all that interesting.

Short-version: There is no one objectively best way to play a Fantasy RPG no matter how many videos you make claiming there is.

Disagree. There are many many plot turns in good stories that hinge on equipment and the exhaustion or loss thereof. I'm sure Bats has been pissed more than once about not packing enough gas or grapples or whatever he uses. Otherwise why the fuck make a belt to have this stuff within reach?

Arrow count is very interesting to track. Do you spend your second last arrow taking down a guard or save it for the blood priest? Spend it now and your buddy charging in for hand-to-hand with the guard will have an easier time. Save it, and your buddy might die, but the blood priest will be easier to assassinate.

Not tracking this stuff is a sign that the game world is too rich with resources or the players are just lazy.

Do you play your video games with infinite ammo?

Quote from: Itachi on December 02, 2020, 12:12:18 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 02, 2020, 11:50:33 AMShort-version: There is no one objectively best way to play a Fantasy RPG no matter how many videos you make claiming there is.

This.

/thread

Okay boss. Let's wind down the forums, cos there's nothing left to talk about. Peeps gonna play how they wanna play and any opinion as to how things should be played is not objective (duh, by definition) and therefore not worth discussing.

As as aside, I like the story of Monopoly, so I'm getting rid of the dice and will choose what numbers I roll.

This is the kind of discussion that makes me think I should just sell off my collection and resign myself to life as a non-gamer, since I'm not particularly interested in doing it 'right.'

On a less self-pitying note, I think Pundit, Jeffro Johnson, et al. are right in one thing--we've got several different hobbies going on here, all trying to use the same tools and claim the same brand identity.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 02, 2020, 12:14:16 PM
Do you play your video games with infinite ammo?

City of Heroes (Homecoming servers), Portal 1/2, and Star Wars The Old Republic on occasion... so, Yes.

This is why the 'ammo check' mechanism in Necromunda might be a good 'middle ground' for tracking this sort of thing.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 02, 2020, 12:43:03 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 02, 2020, 12:14:16 PM
Do you play your video games with infinite ammo?

City of Heroes (Homecoming servers), Portal 1/2, and Star Wars The Old Republic on occasion... so, Yes.

And those games have no resource limits at all, like timed recharges?

In Doom, I quite like the need to ration shotgun shells only to run out and then later find a crate. It makes it exciting when you get close to running out.

At the risk of continuing a niche point, I have found that the means of ammo tracking that suits me the best is the one suggested by someone here:  The default is if the arrow hits, you get it back.  If it misses, you lose it.  Then the GM can adjudicate for special circumstances.

For the vast majority of cases, it works out to about the same as more involved methods.  It is a great for handling time.  Hit and you are rolling damage but have no ammo to track.  Miss, you are done and the game is moving onto the next action while you record your lost arrow.

Sure, when fighting a flying target or one that falls off a cliff or sinks into a lake, you need that GM adjudication.  Easy enough to drop into more precise tracking when it matters.  The main thing is that some form of resource tracking with teeth gives the players those interesting decisions to make.  The exact nature of the resource tracking should be more concerned with handling time.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 02, 2020, 12:14:16 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 02, 2020, 11:50:33 AM
Eh, depends on what you're gaming for.

Do you keep track of Batarangs and gas cylinders for his grapple gun when you're running Batman in a four-color superhero RPG?

Is there a single line of text in "The Lord of Rings" devoted to how many arrows Legolas had left in his quiver?

If you're interested in running a dungeon-crawl resource management game where xp is based almost exclusively on how much treasure you can carry out of the dungeon, then sure, tracking every last arrow and ration bar makes sense. You could also throw Palladium-style armor damage, weapon maintenance on top too and rolling for the condition of each arrow after its fired.

If you're running a campaign about brave adventurers seeking to infiltrate the blood priest's tower before he has finished his doomsday ritual, caring about the precise arrow count isn't generally seen as all that interesting.

Short-version: There is no one objectively best way to play a Fantasy RPG no matter how many videos you make claiming there is.

Disagree. There are many many plot turns in good stories that hinge on equipment and the exhaustion or loss thereof. I'm sure Bats has been pissed more than once about not packing enough gas or grapples or whatever he uses. Otherwise why the fuck make a belt to have this stuff within reach?

Arrow count is very interesting to track. Do you spend your second last arrow taking down a guard or save it for the blood priest? Spend it now and your buddy charging in for hand-to-hand with the guard will have an easier time. Save it, and your buddy might die, but the blood priest will be easier to assassinate.

Not tracking this stuff is a sign that the game world is too rich with resources or the players are just lazy.

Do you play your video games with infinite ammo?

Mostly agree, but the video game tracks your ammo for you.  That takes away the one downside of the approach.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 02, 2020, 12:25:45 PM
This is the kind of discussion that makes me think I should just sell off my collection and resign myself to life as a non-gamer, since I'm not particularly interested in doing it 'right.'

On a less self-pitying note, I think Pundit, Jeffro Johnson, et al. are right in one thing--we've got several different hobbies going on here, all trying to use the same tools and claim the same brand identity.

Yeah, it's amazing how many people use roleplaying games to not roleplay.

This is like arguing that all fantasy novels should use "hard magic" systems because "soft magic" is bad.

It's a matter of preference. I struggle to enjoy a lot of soft-magic fantasy stories but that doesn't mean others are reading novels wrong.

Greetings!

I think Pundit did a good video. I agree with Pundit here.

Telling a story is different from playing a game. Being in an immersive game certainly takes on qualities of some aspects of telling stories--and after playing, a story develops--but fundamentally, being immersed in the world is different from merely telling a story.

Keeping track of arrows is relevant for characters that use bows. Just like characters also need to keep track of their supplies of fresh water, food, healing herbs, spell components, oil, and the like. In the process of using such supplies, important events, choices, and decisions in the game may occur, which if all of that is just otherwise cast aside as irrelevant, in my view a lot of meaningfulness is lost. Not needing to worry about such mundane details seems seductively appealing--and at first glance, it can seem freeing and wonderful. However, over time, the toll is paid, and gradually, the game play reaches a point where there is a negative erosion of the game--something significant and meaningful has been lost.

Not keeping track of arrows and relevant supplies aligns the game more with a novel and video-game--rather than an immersive role-playing game. Pundit is also right on target with there being a fundamental shift in focus to the game being more focused on *you*, the single character--as opposed to *you* being a character in an immersive, emulative world. I can see where that distinction can feel like it gets fuzzy, but the distinction is real. Characters in novels are focused on themselves, as they are the prime protagonist and lens from which everything in the novel revolves around. Characters in an emulative game world are much more than that, as they are emulating a person in a dynamic world.

I also think there are some distinctions between what are different "mediums"--novels are not RPG's. Then there are also distinct influences from different genres of games--you can see this clearly in the whole "supers" or "superhero" genres of games from comic books. In such a genre, superheroes never need to worry about mundane considerations. That is a trivial detail in their interaction through the world, as they are superheroes and are far beyond such worries. In roleplaying games though, particularly D&D, characters are *not* superheroes. They are farm boys, or tribesmen, or a mercenary, or what have you. An ostensibly normal human--or similar humanoid--living in a dynamic world with much of the same laws and dynamics that exist in the real world. Those two foundations are very different lenses from which such games are played, and are largely incompatible.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK