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Author Topic: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.  (Read 14786 times)

SonTodoGato
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If you were around /tg/ in the last weeks, you probably came across a very neuroatypical post about how "mana" and "scientific magic" are ruining everything. I claim authorship of that post. Someone made a post against the Eberron setting apparently using very similar arguments; that wasn't me, but chances are we can probably agree on many points. As you'd expect, it was quite divisive since most people at /tg/, although they tend to dislike wokeism, can't think outside of their modernist, rationalist, naturalist 21st century worldview.

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Here are my main points:

Magic should not a physical phenomenon

Most modern settings simply assume that magic is a force of nature; some sort of energy that works in a mechanistic, physical way that can be harnessed by humans and even machines. Compare it electricity, if you will. It is simply magic because it is not known. But what is real life, "authentic" magic like? To illustrate my point, let's analyze a few examples, starting with an actual spell from the Picatrix, the medieval grimoire of astrological magick.

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For example, the book advises one to create a ring for Saturn using turquoise and lead, and to inscribe into it an image of a man riding a dragon, wielding a sickle or a scythe. If you wear the ring, then:

The spirits that dwell in the dark and obscure places will be well-disposed to the wearer; bulls will assist the wearer. Even profound secrets, humans, scorpions, serpents, mice, all the reptiles upon the earth, and all the operations of Saturn will be revealed to the wearer.

Source: https://www.medievalists.net/2019/06/how-to-become-an-evil-wizard-medieval-magic-from-picatrix/

Here is another example:

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‘Curse tablets’ are small sheets of lead, inscribed with messages from individuals seeking to make gods and spirits act on their behalf and influence the behaviour of others against their will. The motives are usually malign and their expression violent, for example to wreck an opponent’s chariot in the circus, to compel a person to submit to sex or to take revenge on a thief. Letters and lines written back to front, magical ‘gibberish’ and arcane words and symbols often lend the texts additional power to persuade. In places where supernatural agents could be contacted, thrown into sacred pools at temples, interred with the dead or hidden by the turning post at the circus, these tablets have survived to be found by archaeologists.

Source: curses.csad.ox.ac.uk/beginners/

Or how about superstitions in general?

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Opinion is divided as to which way up the horseshoe ought to be nailed. Some say the ends should point up, so that the horseshoe catches the luck, and that the ends pointing down allow the good luck to be lost; others say they should point down, so that the luck is poured upon those entering the home. Superstitious sailors believe that nailing a horseshoe to the mast will help their vessel avoid storms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe#Superstition

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In the ritual of today, Bloody Mary allegedly appears to individuals or groups who ritualistically invoke her name in an act of catoptromancy. This is done by repeatedly chanting her name into a mirror placed in a dimly-lit or candle-lit room. The name must be uttered thirteen times (or some other specified number of times). The Bloody Mary apparition allegedly appears as a corpse, witch, or ghost that can be friendly or evil, and is sometimes seen covered in blood (hence the name). The lore surrounding the ritual states that participants may endure the apparition screaming at them, cursing them, strangling them, stealing their soul, drinking their blood, or scratching their eyes out.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Mary_(folklore)
   
And finally observations from the Lemegeton or Lesser Key of Solomon, arguably the most famous grimoire

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FIRST, thou shalt know and observe the Moon’s Age for thy working. The best days be when the Moon Luna is 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, or 14 days old, as Solomon saith; and no other days be profitable. The Seals of the 72 Kings are to be made in Metals.
The Chief Kings’ in Sol (Gold); Marquises’ in Luna (Silver); Dukes’ in Venus (Copper); Prelacies’ in Jupiter (Tin); Knights’ in Saturn (Lead); Presidents’ in Mercury (Mercury); Earls’ in Venus (Copper), and Luna (Silver), alike equal, etc. THESE 72 Kings be under the Power of AMAYMON, CORSON, ZIMIMAY or ZIMINAIR, and GAAP, who are the Four Great Kings ruling in the Four Quarters, or Cardinal Points,27 viz.: East, West, North, and South, and are not to be called forth except it be upon Great Occasions; but are to be Invocated and Commanded to send such or such a Spirit that is under their Power and Rule, as is shown in the following Invocations or Conjurations. And the Chief Kings may be bound from 9 till 12 o’clock at Noon, and from 3 till Sunset; Marquises may be bound from 3 in the afternoon till 9 at Night, and from 9 at Night till Sunrise; Dukes may be bound from Sunrise till Noonday in Clear Weather; Prelates may be bound any hour of the Day; Knights may from Dawning of Day till Sunrise, or from 4 o’clock till Sunset;
Presidents may be bound any time, excepting Twilight, at Night, unless the King whom they are under be Invocated; and Counties or Earls any hour of the Day, so itbe in Woods, or in any other places whither men resort not, or where no noise is, etc.

So, my questions are:

What kind of impersonal force of nature cares about how many times you say a word in a particular language, what direction you're facing, the phase of the moon, what day of the week it is, how you hang a fucking horseshoe on your door and requires you to draw a man holding a scythe riding a dragon?
How can the people who believe magic is a natural force explain how "sports rituals" work?
How does a fucking planet, a star (a literal ball of plasma million lightyears away, possibly already gone), a number, a plant, a metal, a rock, etc. have a personality or meaning of its own?
What sort of natural phenomenon cares about arbitrary and subjective steps to follow?

Evidently, magic as a practice can only be explained in terms of anthropology, semiotics, culture and society. It reveals more about us than about magic itself; the value we give to numbers, the meaning we give to natural phenomena, the superstitious, irrational and ritualistic behaviors we resort to to control the world in which we live, how we relate to others, etc.

"But how does magic work, then?" you might ask.

And my answer would be: "Who cares?! Leave some things to the imagination. Whatever explanation people (players, readers, audience) come up with will satisfy them more than any particular explanation. Let them fill the gaps. Not knowing is part of the fun."

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How "scientific magic" actually destroys fantasy.

If magic is a "force of nature", there can be no fantasy. Everything (LOTR, D&D, Harry Potter, etc.) is a sci fi setting in which people aren't informed enough. With this 21st century mindset, fantasy can only be understood in terms of scientific knowledge. There can be no supernatural, only natural.

With this mindset, all magical beings become mere species. Dwarves, Elves, Goblins, Hobbits, Orcs; you name it. You end up having them together at an inn because why not? Why can't different species crowd the cities and live just like any person? Their only differences are physiological; there is nothing supernatural about any of them. The next step is adding furryfolk, elementals, genasi, aasimar, etc. because why not? After all, all magical creatures are allowed. Freakshitting is the result of this.

This is supply and demand all over again. If elves can sit next to you at the pub and drink ale alongside orcs, dwarves, and have normal lives, if there are hundreds of wizards per city with floating books and shiny crystals, schools of magic, priests casting divine spells (i.e. miracles), magic bards playing at courts, angelfolk flying around... then magic loses its appeal. It just becomes commonplace. There is no mystery and the special becomes mundane.

If there is only one magic sword, one big evil wizard, one fairy pond, an occassional miracle, etc. every instance becomes special.

GeekyBugle

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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2021, 05:20:23 PM »
From one of my games:

Witches (call them wizards or whatever) are born, for some unknown reason they can do magic, white magic harnesses the leftover preternatural radiation from the creation and other huge supernatural events (War in heaven between the angels where Lucifer and his minions are expelled?).

Black magic comes from pacts with demons who grant some power to the caster if certain rituals are done, it includes blood, torture and human sacrifice in it's rituals.

Priests don't cast spells nor do they need to prepare shit. They pray to God on the spot and depending on their virtue a miracle occurs (or not, God works in misterious ways after all).

Magic can't be detected by technology and it disrupts the more advanced tech, the more powerful the spell the strongest/far reaching the disruption.

Miracles have been recorded in real time, but no energy can be detected and no scientific explanation has been provided.

As an addendum: I totally agree with you, if it wasn't obvious.
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Shasarak

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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2021, 05:34:24 PM »
"But how does magic work, then?" you might ask.

And my answer would be: "Who cares?! Leave some things to the imagination.

Well I guess that cuts out a third of the book detailing magic spells.
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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2021, 05:51:26 PM »
Yeah, nope, not really.

The point is - fantasy is MODERN phenomenon. It's written for people with MODERN mindsets, may they vary terribly.
And it was like that from beginning. Howard made his Cimmerians people lacking any real sense of mysiticsm as it fitted his utterly modern Nietzcheanic sentiments.
Tolkien re-written very Edda-like early setting to fit it more tightly with very rationalist and strict Catholic theology, and while from LOTR perspective various fenomena is often weakly explained, we know there was solid I'd even dare to say hard magic behind it, even if base on quite simple scheme. Lovecraft.. oh you know it.

And as various ideas were exchanged, rewamped and so on multiple times, you get many kinds of magic. Mostly as it's written by Murcians it's some sort of superpowers, but if you look around you gonna find all kind of shit.

And even in real life, in history magic was often aspiring to organised, quasi-scientific worldview, not some random superstitions. Books your quoting would be by contemporary occultists probably considered quite hard science. Animist magic was often strict procedures by dealing with spirits, half-engineering, half-diplomatic protocol. South and East Asia was all about harnessing and using life energy in very specific way and very specific techniques, that were not taken out of their asses to be mystical and shit, no they were chosen precisely because they seemed rational and well explained for those inventing them (though based on false principles). And then you have all symbolic/hermetic magic where symbols were treaten very seriously, and so on, and so on. So magic that is sort of like pulp science superpowers is perfectly within spirit of epoch.

In the end fantasy literature was very rarely used with genuine intention to show people some archaics way of thinking. Not even by unwoke authors.
And it also very rarely was used as a method of teaching about real magick, because well not many fantasy authors are fans of this. They want zany fantasy powers to power their settings that it.
And Gary Gygax made spells part of combat mechanic basically to get certain results and so on.

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How can the people who believe magic is a natural force explain how "sports rituals" work?

Well I'd guess people practicing let's say chi magic do not do sport rituals, unless we call gymnastics to open chakras in specific way "sport ritual".

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"But how does magic work, then?" you might ask.

And my answer would be: "Who cares?! Leave some things to the imagination. Whatever explanation people (players, readers, audience) come up with will satisfy them more than any particular explanation. Let them fill the gaps. Not knowing is part of the fun."

Well fine but problem is - that's precisely non-authentic stance. Real life practioners had usually quite fine theories and hypothesies about magic and how it works.
So sure if you write from perspective of peasants you can go all-superstition route (but then you can do it also with modern superhero magic - because folk won't get it anyway). But if you write about mages, or play them - well then better explain how it works dammit.

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If magic is a "force of nature", there can be no fantasy. Everything (LOTR, D&D, Harry Potter, etc.) is a sci fi setting in which people aren't informed enough. With this 21st century mindset, fantasy can only be understood in terms of scientific knowledge. There can be no supernatural, only natural.

With this mindset, all magical beings become mere species. Dwarves, Elves, Goblins, Hobbits, Orcs; you name it.

Well of those HP definitely works in your favour - magic there works without any reason, rules and consistency it's unholy, unscientific brothel of a conception. Good pick.
LOTR... that's way more problematic. I mean Ainur spirits can be consider supernatural sure.. but all other elements. More like high-level-natural. Like hobbits are totally natural race within this setting - they are pygmy offshot of mankind, sharing the same fate, same basic metaphysics as big Men they came from. Give one a ring, and you could get very small Nazgul with time.
Also Elves... like they are Eden Humans, pre-Fall in general conception, so better, stronger, less corrupt, but their magic is in many ways super-science, they just get how Arda works much more intimately - but their deeds are perfectly within ruleset of this world. Even Ainur powers are explained in systematic way, and we know for instance why Melkor ended why he ended, and what consequences it brought to world. And so on, and so on. (Also by word of Tolkien - elves are basically the same species as humans).
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 05:58:46 PM by Wrath of God »
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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2021, 05:57:48 PM »
[double to delete]
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

TJS

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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2021, 06:31:09 PM »
Sometimes the way people around here use tenses confounds me.  Is destroying?



Is this in the same way that in the picture above the proliferation of nuclear weapons are destroying the earth?

When has it ever been different?  There were articles about how to apply the logical consequences of Magic in Dragon in the 80s.  Continual Light spells for streetlamps and the like.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 06:33:54 PM by TJS »

hedgehobbit

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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2021, 06:39:54 PM »
Magic should not a physical phenomenon

Magic is described the way it is in the real world because, in the real world magic doesn't actually work. Magic on our Earth cannot be a physical phenomenon because it doesn't exists.

As soon as any form of "magic" becomes demonstrable, it becomes a science. Regardless of how it's described. If magic worked in an RPG the same way it works in our world then no one would bother being a magic-user. Magic has to be repeatable and predictable or it won't be used.

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If there is only one magic sword, one big evil wizard, one fairy pond, an occassional miracle, etc. every instance becomes special.

No. I've heard this argument a thousand times wrt D&D and it just isn't true. It doesn't matter of there are only 4 elves in the entire universe, if all four of those elves are PCs, then elves are mundane. If the only magic sword in the game world is a +1 sword, it still only affects combat 5% of the time which is statistically insignificant.

For magic to be special it must have an affect on the game world that is significantly powerful and not replicate-able by mundane methods.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 06:45:04 PM by hedgehobbit »

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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2021, 06:44:35 PM »
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As soon as any form of "magic" becomes demonstrable, it becomes a science. Regardless of how it's described.

No. Not really. I mean SCIENCE demands methodology and if magickal phenomena will be not possible to scrutinize under such methodology - because spirits of underworlds hate scientists, and it's their call what will happen, then you can have merely history of magickal occurences, but never science of magick - because you cannot experiment on that, not really. Maybe only to get conclusion it's not possible to examine it's scientificaly :P

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If magic worked in an RPG the same way it works in our world then no one would bother being a magic-user. Magic has to be repeatable and predictable or it won't be used.

Shitload of people using magick in history, despite very dubious and unreliable results beg to differ.
And in a world without modern ways of communication. Oh boy.

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"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


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hedgehobbit

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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2021, 06:49:33 PM »
No. Not really. I mean SCIENCE demands methodology and if magickal phenomena will be not possible to scrutinize under such methodology - because spirits of underworlds hate scientists, and it's their call what will happen, then you can have merely history of magickal occurences, but never science of magick - because you cannot experiment on that, not really. Maybe only to get conclusion it's not possible to examine it's scientificaly

Shitload of people using magick in history, despite very dubious and unreliable results beg to differ.

People only used magic in history because they were either desperate or deluded. They couldn't apply scientific methods to it because nothing actually happened.

But you can't make an RPG where magic-users have a magic system that does nothing. Because games have rules and the rules would clearly show that spells had no actual effect.

While it is possible to design a magic system where the players seek to influence "spirits of the underworld", the actual powers and abilities of such spirits could themselves be studied through scientific methods. All you've done is added another layer between the user and the "forces of nature".
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 06:52:48 PM by hedgehobbit »

SonTodoGato
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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2021, 06:50:12 PM »
Fantasy is not modern by any means. I don't know what you'd qualify as fantasy, but bear in mind that its origins can be traced to Greek and Roman myths, the Homeric works, the Nordic sagas, Arthurian and medieval chivalry romances, the Quixote, fairy tales, folklore, and many others which I'm probably forgetting right now. Fantasy is far from being modern.

Don't get me wrong; I never advocated for a "random" or nonsensical approach to magic. My point is, don't bother explaining how it works. Magic may follow a few rules or arbitrary steps, but we do not know its inner workings. If we approach it as a natural phenomenon, it doesn't make sense. It's better to just leave it as a mystery for the sake of the lore and the fun of the story/setting.

Far from being scientific, magic was never really explained. They may have followed certain rituals or patterns, but that does not make it science. You gave the example of hermetic magic; why is writting symbols important? What sort of natural force would care about how we drew a few symbols? How did the spell work before that language was developed? At what point exactly did it become valid? Why does a ball of hydrogen (in the case of Jupiter being a gas giant), minerals or ice have any effect on your personality?

None of the books I quoted were considered reliable, hard science at all. If it were, then you'd expect they had been taken seriously, to the point of casting massive spells to destroy enemy armies (which probably happened, though, but would have disproven them). Not all people believed in those things. Don't underestimate the people of the past; Greek philosophers already scoffed at what they called "superstition", and Romans openly questioned the existence of their gods.

You also mentioned chi as an example of how Easterners approached magic as a natural, flowing substance (something which does have its parallels in western esotericism; aether, orgon, astral fire, pneuma, animal magnetism, etc.), but take a look at feng shui. They literally believed that if the shape of a place resembled a particular animal, it could be auspicious; for example, if a group of mountains reminded them of a dragon, it was better to build a village on its tail so that the dragon would lead. This is far from naturalistic; it's sympathetic magic. Why would a substance care about how a group of people perceive a range of mountains to look? And how would an impersonal force shape the world in a way that those people deem "auspicious"? It's all really subjective, personal experience rather than an objective phenomenon that's outside of their own heads.

Anyway, don't tell me this animist is anything close to an engineer or a scientist:
   


Racists may see an animistic shaman, but I see an engineer, a philosopher and a doctor...

Just because it makes sense to them doesn't mean it is rationalistic. You see things through the eyes of a 21st century, educated Western man. Don't expect other cultures to follow your same notions of what's reasonable.


Apart from that, why did you put "[double to delete]"? What do you want to delete?


Here's another quote, this time from a tv show, that expresses how we should approach magic in fiction:

If you're wondering how he eats and breathes, and other science facts (la la la), Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show, I should really just relax!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 06:53:29 PM by SonTodoGato »

Chris24601

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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2021, 06:54:07 PM »
Sometimes the way people around here use tenses confounds me.  Is destroying?



Is this in the same way that in the picture above the proliferation of nuclear weapons are destroying the earth?

When has it ever been different?  There were articles about how to apply the logical consequences of Magic in Dragon in the 80s.  Continual Light spells for streetlamps and the like.
Continual light, at least in 3e, only becomes practical if you ignore the 100 gp ruby dust material component cost.

With the component cost you could run an oil lamp for 4000 hours (500 nights) for the same price and, if someone steals the lam, you can replace it for a few silver pieces and all the thief has is a few silver pieces of tin and oil to show for it instead of an easily portable item you could sell to an adventurer for enough gold to feed your family for a year.

The main reason magic items don’t replace common technology, even in 3e/4E when you can build them yourself is they’re so damnably expensive that leaving them anyplace unsecured is an invitation for someone to steal it and guards to guard esch continual light lamp are way more expensive than a commoner who goes around just before dusk filling and lighting ALL the town’s lamps.

A noble or adventurer with a continual light lamp they have for personal use? Sure. They’ve already got guards protecting their person or are skilled at putting pointy things into places would-be thieves would find unpleasant so the risk their light will be taken is minimal. For everyone else, oil lamps are going to be much more economical to maintain.

TJS

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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2021, 07:01:49 PM »
3e wasn't around in the 80s.

And I don't remember if 1e or 2e had components costs.  I don't care, and neither obviously did the writers in Dragon.

FFS.  What is it with endless anal quibbling with examples?


SonTodoGato
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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2021, 07:07:04 PM »
Magic is described the way it is in the real world because, in the real world magic doesn't actually work. Magic on our Earth cannot be a physical phenomenon because it doesn't exists.

As soon as any form of "magic" becomes demonstrable, it becomes a science. Regardless of how it's described. If magic worked in an RPG the same way it works in our world then no one would bother being a magic-user. Magic has to be repeatable and predictable or it won't be used.

There are literally thousands of people who go to local healers or cunning folk for "bindings". It doesn't work anyway. People go because they believe in it. The rational, scientific view of testing things objectively is not universal. That's why you have so many girls who are totaly into astrology and call you "negative" if you don't buy it.

However, it would only take one successful spell to have someone hooked forever. Just once. Even if they failed time after time, only one  spell would keep them coming back to keep trying and discover magic.

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If the only magic sword in the game world is a +1 sword, it still only affects combat 5% of the time which is statistically insignificant.
For magic to be special it must have an affect on the game world that is significantly powerful and not replicate-able by mundane methods.

Stop thinking in terms of D&D mechanics. "A magical sword" doesn't mean "+1", whatever that may be. It means Excalibur. A sword that, for some reason, makes you invincible.

This is part of the same devaluation of magic and fantasy; whenever people hear "magic sword" they think of a mechanical benefit; +1, +fire, +ice, +50% poisoning, +20% critical hit, etc. rather than a mythical artifact or a relic.

I know it's a game, but think outside of mechanics. Mechanics come and go, but the essence is something else

jhkim

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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2021, 07:07:17 PM »
Hi, SonTodoGato. I wrote an old essay on this a while ago that digs into a bunch of points. It's here.

https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/antiscience.html


Don't get me wrong; I never advocated for a "random" or nonsensical approach to magic. My point is, don't bother explaining how it works. Magic may follow a few rules or arbitrary steps, but we do not know its inner workings. If we approach it as a natural phenomenon, it doesn't make sense. It's better to just leave it as a mystery for the sake of the lore and the fun of the story/setting.

Far from being scientific, magic was never really explained. They may have followed certain rituals or patterns, but that does not make it science.

A mystery means that there is something to be investigated and explained. If there is nothing there - or if it's impossible to investigate, then it isn't a mystery -- it's just arbitrariness. For magic to be mysterious, then players need to be able to make progress in figuring it out. Here's how I put it in the essay:

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RPG magic systems can roughly be divided up into "fixed spell" and "freeform" mechanics. Fixed spell systems are often highly mechanistic, where the operation of each spell is exactly calculable. Freeform mechanics, on the other hand, call for the GM to judge the difficulty of a spell based on little information as well as a large degree of randomness.

Neither of these, however, is "mysterious". A mystery means that no pattern is obviously visible -- but there is a hidden pattern. For a magic system to be mysterious, there must be hidden patterns which the magician character does not know at first, but which can with effort be discovered. In a game, this means that there must be either hidden variables or even hidden rules. An extreme of this would be that the GM secretly designs the magic system and only lets the player learn it a bit at a time (i.e. completely hidden rules). However, mystery can be injected by having hidden variables. i.e. How a PC's magic works depends on factors which are defined by GM, but which the player must deduce from other clues.


More generally, as to what magic "should" be, that's purely a matter of taste. Even though I wrote that essay, I'm not saying that all magic should be anti-scientific. I'm just presenting it as one option.

None of the books I quoted were considered reliable, hard science at all. If it were, then you'd expect they had been taken seriously, to the point of casting massive spells to destroy enemy armies (which probably happened, though, but would have disproven them). Not all people believed in those things. Don't underestimate the people of the past; Greek philosophers already scoffed at what they called "superstition", and Romans openly questioned the existence of their gods.

There's a huge difference between historical magic like soothsaying and spirit quests; and the flashy spells of 20th century fantasy fiction. Either can work fine in a game, but they're mutually exclusive. I've had some fun games with historical-like magic, but I've also had many fun games emulating modern fantasy fiction.

hedgehobbit

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Re: How "new school", "scientific", "inauthentic" magic is ruining fantasy.
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2021, 07:11:17 PM »
Far from being scientific, magic was never really explained. They may have followed certain rituals or patterns, but that does not make it science.

I don't understand why you say that historical magic "was never really explained". Explained by whom? To whom? By your own example, putting a horseshoe a certain way caused luck to pour out. That's an explanation.

But the main issue is with how we use the world "science". The Mayan's studied the movement of the stars and planets with incredible scientific precision, because they were studying their world trying to noticed patterns in seemingly random events. But people today know what they were actually looking at and what those patterns actually represented. We all know that a trebuchet firing a flaming ball of pitch is a scientific event that can be accurately explained mathematically. A wizard firing a fireball, OTOH, is clearly magic because it can't happen in reality.

So the question is, how does an RPG, whose players all know the clear distinction between science and magic, create a magical system where the players don't really understand why events happen? I don't think it's actually possible.