I have a whole bunch of Brandon Sanderson novels on my shelf and in my Audible library that the OP would hate. Part of the fun of the whole Cosmere is having the overarching secrets that manifest themselves in the various magic systems revealed bit by bit over time. You read the earlier stuff, and you don't know the inner workings at all. There's not much, if anything, to even suggest that Elantris, Warbreaker, and the Mistborn trilogy are even connected at all. Then through subsequent writings you begin to see the connections, the common language used for certain terms, and how each magic system ties into his overarching "realmatic theory" that doesn't really begin to get explored in full until The Stormlight Archive. Q&As, if you keep up with them, also have bits and pieces that fill in some of the blanks. And the Arcanum Unbound collection of short stories did a good bit of tying everything together prior to The Stormlight Archive.

I think a lot of the OP would be fixed if the dude recognized that his preferences aren't(nor should they be) everyone's preferences. A "to me" or "for me" here or there would have gone a long way towards having me take them seriously. But no, having an underlying explanation that character can(and maybe do) understand to some degree doesn't ruin the magic or the fantasy . . . for me. (see how easy that was?)

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 02, 2021, 07:07:04 PMStop thinking in terms of D&D mechanics. "A magical sword" doesn't mean "+1", whatever that may be. It means Excalibur. A sword that, for some reason, makes you invincible.

This is part of the same devaluation of magic and fantasy; whenever people hear "magic sword" they think of a mechanical benefit; +1, +fire, +ice, +50% poisoning, +20% critical hit, etc. rather than a mythical artifact or a relic.

I'm thinking in terms of RPG mechanics because it is a post in an RPG forum. A magical sword that makes the bearer invincible would be special. A +1 sword is not that special. However, if you are playing a game, you know whether the magical sword makes you invincible or not. There is no mystery or ambiguity. It either does or it doesn't. And the player will also know the first time the bearer of the sword gets hit in combat.

So, I'm not sure how your suggestions about magical can be reflected in an RPG setting the way you describe.

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 02, 2021, 05:07:26 PM
If magic is a "force of nature", there can be no fantasy. Everything (LOTR, D&D, Harry Potter, etc.) is a sci fi setting in which people aren't informed enough. With this 21st century mindset, fantasy can only be understood in terms of scientific knowledge. There can be no supernatural, only natural.

"Magic as a science" is nothing new. In "The Dreams in the Witch House" Lovecraft presents the "magic" of the Witch in the title as a form of "mathematics". Generally speaking, a lot (not all) of "horrifying creatures and insane spells" in Lovecraft tales are explained as the inadequate human mind "touching areas of the cosmos where the natural rules are different from those that we know. Lovecraft himself said a couple of times that many of his tales were to be considered sci-fi, or horror/sci-fi.

What "The Color Out of Space" does, for example, is totally unexplained, even by science.

"Scientific" magic can also mean what J.R.R.Tolkein referred to as "subcreation." The great Larry Niven also favored a logical approach to magic.

If magic must itself follow certain rules then it becomes more fun. In AD&D we see this: a magic user must spend a certain amount of time memorizing a spell, back in 1977 usually 15 minutes/spell level (so a level eight spell would take two hours). Once used the "ammunition" stored was forgotten. Spells had duration, firing time, range, area of effect, and could even be affected by environmental conditions (try casting a fireball underwater).

This was in part to balance out the level of power between magic and physical force. If a wizard could just wave his hand and wipe out an entire army, never running out of magic, then who would want to be a fighter? In my worlds where magic does exist there are places where it is much weaker or almost nullified so both magicians and magical creatures must be careful- a magical creature might have to bring in "stored" magic the way you would bring water in a canteen if in a desert.

But if magic was too clumsy and weak then what was the point? Unless only used for healing, purifying water, etc. it would have little use in battle.

What the real problem today is is the obsession over science, the new religion. NOTHING can be free of it, and its biggest proponents will conveniently go along with transexualism or the idea that men and women are essentially the same except for social constructs.

If one wants to go by that then "Star Trek" is fantasy: converting Captain Kirk to energy to beam him aboard would mean more energy than you'd need to blow half of America into orbit; how does a starship move so quickly without its crew being splattered all over the walls (pesky inertia); what about the doppler effect; how does a starship moving at warp speed fire its weapons without hitting itself (is this why "photon" torpedoes became glorified submarine torpedoes?); if evolution is true how is it that so many planets are so compatible with so many alien species- and how do all those amazingly humanish species manage to cross-breed- the chances of that happening aren't even worth considering unless everyone did have a common alien ancestor (which would be closer to Genesis than random evolution); oh yes and consider what an approaching faster-than-light vessel would seem to be doing; etc.

First consider that the magic in rpgs tends to be like technology because it is systematised. 

To a large degree it needs to in order to be reliable and thus something that can be leveraged.

To try and make it feel less like technology you would need a kind of magic that works along some kind of poetic rules.  Basically you want it's effectiveness to be based less of system mastery and more on the players creativity with the basic tools of magic.

Something like Ars Magica and Mage goes a little way in this direction by removing programmable spells but it's still very systematised.

Basically you need to work by metaphor.

Perhaps you could do something with elements and the four humours.  In this case however you would not be using 'fire' to create fireballs, but instead to manipulate things that are metaphorically associated with fire ie you use your fire magic to inflame someone's passions.

The difficulty here though is that it's impossible to do without an awful lot of GM adjudication* and that removes a lot of the fun of traditional magic systems which are usually about giving explicit permission for certain things to happen.

*because if what you can do with magic is solidly and systematically defined than it just becomes technology again.

I disagree with SonTodoGato on a bunch of points, but I think it is possible for magic to be mysterious.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 02, 2021, 07:17:57 PM
I'm thinking in terms of RPG mechanics because it is a post in an RPG forum. A magical sword that makes the bearer invincible would be special. A +1 sword is not that special. However, if you are playing a game, you know whether the magical sword makes you invincible or not. There is no mystery or ambiguity. It either does or it doesn't. And the player will also know the first time the bearer of the sword gets hit in combat.

So, I'm not sure how your suggestions about magical can be reflected in an RPG setting the way you describe.

I think the simplest way to imagine this is by animism. For example, in my Vinland game, one of the most important functions of the prophetess was to speak to the spirits. Spirits could have significant effects on all the events that were happening, but only the prophetess (gydja) was skilled in contacting them. Even then, there could be things that she missed. So it's possible that a powerful spirit might grant invincibility to a warrior. But if so, then a lot of questions remain. What spirit granted it? Even if this is found out, then there are other questions - how long will it continue to grant it? What does it want in return?

If the spirits have patterns and act in semi-predictable ways, then this can be fun to play with, and connects play to the mystic background. (Much like having an unknown benefactor who gives them gold might be a non-magical mystery for the PCs.)

Quote from: Wrath of God on August 02, 2021, 06:44:35 PM

QuoteAs soon as any form of "magic" becomes demonstrable, it becomes a science. Regardless of how it's described.

No. Not really. I mean SCIENCE demands methodology and if magickal phenomena will be not possible to scrutinize under such methodology - because spirits of underworlds hate scientists, and it's their call what will happen, then you can have merely history of magickal occurences, but never science of magick - because you cannot experiment on that, not really. Maybe only to get conclusion it's not possible to examine it's scientificaly

QuoteIf magic worked in an RPG the same way it works in our world then no one would bother being a magic-user. Magic has to be repeatable and predictable or it won't be used.

Shitload of people using magick in history, despite very dubious and unreliable results beg to differ.
And in a world without modern ways of communication. Oh boy.

Is there any reason why the scientific method can not by applied to "magick"?

Terry Pratchet covered this quite nicely in his many Witches novels.

I like Eberron.  I like a world where bound elementals pulling magical vehicles and magic guilds affect the world are facts of life.  I also like that in Eberron one of those magical guilds has basically made souls and nobody knows how.  I like that there are things crawling beneath the surface and bubbles of demi-planes make the underground world way weirder than it has a right to be and that the regular tides might be bound to the slow breathing of an actual world wyrm more than any moons.

I also like the Warhammer Old World where humans are the default race, elves are purposefully and willfully mysterious, dwarves are insular and have mysterious runes, and magic is known, but even the people who know how it works know that it is dangerous as (literal) hell and should be watched carefully.

I like Lord of the Rings with elves that are just a step down from angels and can do ridiculous things like see over the horizon because they were around when the world was flat and they know how that should work, or who make camouflaging cloaks and when asked if they are magic shrug and say "I don't know what you mean by that."

I like GURPS Cabal (though running it is a different thing) and Ars Magica where magic is codified and understood, but there is still plenty of room for mystery and wonder and raw "WHAT THE FUCK" levels of pants shitting surprise.

Anyway, I don't necessarily disagree with what SonTodoGato is saying, but I don't think it is always true either.  There are some good points there and those points highlight pitfalls that anybody should be aware of when they are putting together the lore for their setting.   However, there is a certain degree of goalpost shifting that is possible to make all sorts of fantasy work. 

QuoteWhat kind of impersonal force of nature cares about how many times you say a word in a particular language, what direction you're facing, the phase of the moon, what day of the week it is, how you hang a fucking horseshoe on your door and requires you to draw a man holding a scythe riding a dragon?

Impersonal forces of nature cannot care about anything, but they do respond to certain actions.  Focusing sunlight can start a fire, electromagnetic fields can contain plasma and an ash wand with a fire opal set into it can direct flame magic.   A setting can have a language that developed closer to the dawn of time vibrate more clearly with the music of the spheres.  English won't get you far, Latin is a bit easier, but you really want something like Enochian or Adamic (or whatever is setting appropriate.)

However, even if magic itself is an impersonal force of nature, that doesn't mean there aren't impersonal magical forces running about getting their fingers in things.  Spirits, demons, faeries, hell, other wizards can all be meddling in forces and contaminating your laboratory.  Maybe necromancy was basically fine for a long long time, but suddenly Orcus rises in power and nobody can work necromancy without the demon prince of undeath poisoning that particular well water.

QuoteHow does a fucking planet, a star (a literal ball of plasma million lightyears away, possibly already gone), a number, a plant, a metal, a rock, etc. have a personality or meaning of its own?

Another quote I'm fond of is "Even in your world, that is only what stars are made of, not what they are."   CS Lewis, Voyage of the Dawn Treader.  The easy answer is likewise "They aren't like that here."   But even if they don't have some sort of spirit or intelligence attached to them, it may be as simple as the energies connected with these things are a part of the physics of the world.

QuoteWhat sort of natural phenomenon cares about arbitrary and subjective steps to follow?

Those steps steps don't have to be either arbitrary or subjective.  It can be as natural and objective as using chemistry and thermodynamics for advanced baking.  Hedge wizards can only manage thaumaturgical bread and toast, but high mages can do crazy things with molecular gastronomancy.

QuoteIf magic is a "force of nature", there can be no fantasy.

This is where I categorically disagree.  All it means is that one fantasy is different than another and tastes will vary.  After all, even in our world wizards were trying to be scientists.  They were wrong (arguably completely and utterly wrong) about a lot of things, but they WANTED it to be science.   If it was as real as they were acting like it was, it could have easily behaved in laboratory conditions.  Unless interference from entities from beyond the world was in play back then... /spooky tension chord.

QuoteThis is supply and demand all over again. If elves can sit next to you at the pub and drink ale alongside orcs, dwarves, and have normal lives, if there are hundreds of wizards per city with floating books and shiny crystals, schools of magic, priests casting divine spells (i.e. miracles), magic bards playing at courts, angelfolk flying around... then magic loses its appeal. It just becomes commonplace. There is no mystery and the special becomes mundane.

You can make the same argument about advanced technology and the existence of aliens making sci-fi boring.  I won't ask if you do or not, because that is a matter of taste and if you don't like it, no amount of sugar sprinkled on the top is going to make you want to choke it down.  Some people only want a hard sci-fi setting in the solar system at most and some people aren't happy without FTL.

It just means that the wonder, mystery, and the special are coming from different places is all. 

---

"The world, as we know it, can be considered a hologram constructed from 36 component images. These images represent mystical energies of various natures, frequencies, and indexes of perceptibility. The Cabal has named these images, and hence their energies, the decans. Each decan governs (or
creates, or energizes, or empowers) a certain type of experience or existence. Everything mortal humans can sense about the world derives from the interplay of these magical, decanic forces, their relative proportions determining the type of matter or energy perceived. Magical fields (which is to say, all energies) emanate from the Prime Mover, the Source of All Energy and Being within the Realm of Atziluth, what religious people term the Godhead. As the energies flow out from this Realm, they attenuate and mix, becoming more difficult to isolate, detect, or use by any but specialists or those specifically attuned to the decans. At their farthest extension, the magical energies have blended and damped down so completely that they actually become common matter. By first seeing, and then drawing upon, the powers of the decans, sorcerers can alter reality, redesign portions of the mundane hologram, transfer energies and concepts without crossing the intervening space or time – in short, they can do magic."  - Hite, GURPS Cabal

"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."  Foglio, Girl Genius

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." -Pratchett, Hat Full of Sky

The thing is, magic itself is expected to have certain desired results. A rain dance is expected to bring rain, for example. This means you have to do certain things in a certain way to achieve the desired results- same as chemistry or such. In AD&D it's the same thing: certain moves, words, materials...to cast that fireball.

What would be "mysterious" about magic is WHY doing these things would work. That could remain unknown. A cleric may be able to do things because of spells given by deities, but what if one cannot understand deities or their alien motives?

QuotePeople only used magic in history because they were either desperate or deluded. They couldn't apply scientific methods to it because nothing actually happened.

Yeah, keep being historically deluded yourself.

QuoteBut you can't make an RPG where magic-users have a magic system that does nothing. Because games have rules and the rules would clearly show that spells had no actual effect.

But you can make RPG where magic-users have no easily discernable effects and stance over them will be still simmilar to modern world. Like all subtle probabilty warping.
Players will know it works, because character sheets. World they play in... not so much.

QuoteWhile it is possible to design a magic system where the players seek to influence "spirits of the underworld", the actual powers and abilities of such spirits could themselves be studied through scientific methods. All you've done is added another layer between the user and the "forces of nature".

No it wouldn't if spirits would actively shun such students. Like hard-wired magic won't work if you try scrutinize it.
Only enlightened shaman will see.

QuoteFantasy is not modern by any means. I don't know what you'd qualify as fantasy, but bear in mind that its origins can be traced to Greek and Roman myths, the Homeric works, the Nordic sagas, Arthurian and medieval chivalry romances, the Quixote, fairy tales, folklore, and many others which I'm probably forgetting right now. Fantasy is far from being modern.

Those are all inspirations for fantasy. It does not change simple fact that fantasy is young genre made in modern times, by people with mostly somehow modern perspectives (always moderns compared those truly ancient times). And with rare exceptions those good old times were used as cool scenery and plot devices and that's it.

QuoteDon't get me wrong; I never advocated for a "random" or nonsensical approach to magic. My point is, don't bother explaining how it works. Magic may follow a few rules or arbitrary steps, but we do not know its inner workings. If we approach it as a natural phenomenon, it doesn't make sense. It's better to just leave it as a mystery for the sake of the lore and the fun of the story/setting.

Well occultists would disagree. They have clear notions HOW IT WORKS. Either by spirit world, manipulation of chi, or creating some combinations of symbols reflecting Higher Reality. They at least thought they knew, not just recipe but inner works.

QuoteFar from being scientific, magic was never really explained. They may have followed certain rituals or patterns, but that does not make it science. You gave the example of hermetic magic; why is writting symbols important? What sort of natural force would care about how we drew a few symbols? How did the spell work before that language was developed? At what point exactly did it become valid? Why does a ball of hydrogen (in the case of Jupiter being a gas giant), minerals or ice have any effect on your personality?

Because for them NATURAL world was something way bigger than for modern scientists.
Of course it's not science as science is merely 200 years old. But in many ways it's one of protosciences.
What sort of natural force would care - well spirits of underworld for instance

QuoteDon't underestimate the people of the past; Greek philosophers already scoffed at what they called "superstition", and Romans openly questioned the existence of their gods.

Sure but people scoffing superstitions could very well dabble in occult.
Chinese philosopher could treat belief in wood spirits as bollocks, why hold belief in chakras in high regard.

QuoteAnyway, don't tell me this animist is anything close to an engineer or a scientist:

For it's time... sure it is.
Also TBH this modern "scientific" energy magic also is usually not something scientific but some random superpower, accessible only to talented chosen ones, which also makes any scientific research of it extremely hard.

QuoteThis is far from naturalistic; it's sympathetic magic. Why would a substance care about how a group of people perceive a range of mountains to look? And how would an impersonal force shape the world in a way that those people deem "auspicious"? It's all really subjective, personal experience rather than an objective phenomenon that's outside of their own heads.

You asume for some reason natural have to be impersonal.

QuoteApart from that, why did you put "[double to delete]"? What do you want to delete?

I doubled post while editing it.

QuoteHere's another quote, this time from a tv show, that expresses how we should approach magic in fiction:

If you're wondering how he eats and breathes, and other science facts (la la la), Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show, I should really just relax!!!!!!!

Now that's terribly boring, MCU level crap
Give me zany occult theories about how mathematical interactions with platonic realms via geometric and sympathetic symbols can re-write reality and create Immortal Peanut Liches, dammit

QuoteThis is part of the same devaluation of magic and fantasy; whenever people hear "magic sword" they think of a mechanical benefit; +1, +fire, +ice, +50% poisoning, +20% critical hit, etc. rather than a mythical artifact or a relic.

I know it's a game, but think outside of mechanics. Mechanics come and go, but the essence is something else

The essence of D&D fantasy is - this sword is objectively burning and oozing delicious tetradoxine at once.

QuoteThere's a huge difference between historical magic like soothsaying and spirit quests; and the flashy spells of 20th century fantasy fiction. Either can work fine in a game, but they're mutually exclusive. I've had some fun games with historical-like magic, but I've also had many fun games emulating modern fantasy fiction.

I'd say they are not mutually exclusive.

Quoteif evolution is true how is it that so many planets are so compatible with so many alien species

For ST sake I would say - lore implies humanoid races are result of some Elder Race actions and they are designed to be compatible.

Quotehow does a starship moving at warp speed fire its weapons without hitting itself (is this why "photon" torpedoes became glorified submarine torpedoes?)

Isn't warp sort of twisted space-time mass that would influence relative speed of light by twisting space itself?

That's nice. What if I want to play a game where magic is commonplace, like Eberon? Am I shit out of luck? I don't want to risk a visit from the Fun Police.

Quote from: jhkim on August 02, 2021, 07:53:24 PM
I disagree with SonTodoGato on a bunch of points, but I think it is possible for magic to be mysterious.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 02, 2021, 07:17:57 PM
I'm thinking in terms of RPG mechanics because it is a post in an RPG forum. A magical sword that makes the bearer invincible would be special. A +1 sword is not that special. However, if you are playing a game, you know whether the magical sword makes you invincible or not. There is no mystery or ambiguity. It either does or it doesn't. And the player will also know the first time the bearer of the sword gets hit in combat.

So, I'm not sure how your suggestions about magical can be reflected in an RPG setting the way you describe.

I think the simplest way to imagine this is by animism. For example, in my Vinland game, one of the most important functions of the prophetess was to speak to the spirits. Spirits could have significant effects on all the events that were happening, but only the prophetess (gydja) was skilled in contacting them. Even then, there could be things that she missed. So it's possible that a powerful spirit might grant invincibility to a warrior. But if so, then a lot of questions remain. What spirit granted it? Even if this is found out, then there are other questions - how long will it continue to grant it? What does it want in return?

If the spirits have patterns and act in semi-predictable ways, then this can be fun to play with, and connects play to the mystic background. (Much like having an unknown benefactor who gives them gold might be a non-magical mystery for the PCs.)

This is a good approach.  Magic here is still being negotiated with the GM, rather than defined by strict rules, but it's negotiated in a way that is already a part of the game and is negotiated in character rather than the player and the GM wrangling about whether a certain effect can happen.

Quote
I think the simplest way to imagine this is by animism. For example, in my Vinland game, one of the most important functions of the prophetess was to speak to the spirits. Spirits could have significant effects on all the events that were happening, but only the prophetess (gydja) was skilled in contacting them. Even then, there could be things that she missed. So it's possible that a powerful spirit might grant invincibility to a warrior. But if so, then a lot of questions remain. What spirit granted it? Even if this is found out, then there are other questions - how long will it continue to grant it? What does it want in return?

AWESOME.

QuoteIs there any reason why the scientific method can not by applied to "magick"?

Terry Pratchet covered this quite nicely in his many Witches novels.

Nah, Witches of Pratchett were sometimes using proto-science instead magick. But when they did real magick it was in no way scientific in a common sense.
But overall why not... well that depends of magick type - I guess all vitalist theories can be easily falsified. But it's hard to falsify existence of spirits from different dimension only shamans can reach through astral travel - and spirits that may not look fondly upon being experimented on.

Sort of in a way why humane sciences are often half-assed methodically - because to do it as hard science you'd need a lot of experiments on human that are considered immoral and illegal.
But with North Korea like state you could try - with spirits from spirit world you cannot influence in rigid manner - no sorry. Won't work. Simple limits of methodology - only things you can experiment on are really under power of scientific method.

QuoteI like Lord of the Rings with elves that are just a step down from angels

Not really. They are step up from humans. The metaphysical chasm between Children of Eru and Ainurs is vast, while Children of Eru are basically one species.

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 02, 2021, 08:09:21 PM
The thing is, magic itself is expected to have certain desired results. A rain dance is expected to bring rain, for example. This means you have to do certain things in a certain way to achieve the desired results- same as chemistry or such. In AD&D it's the same thing: certain moves, words, materials...to cast that fireball.

What would be "mysterious" about magic is WHY doing these things would work. That could remain unknown. A cleric may be able to do things because of spells given by deities, but what if one cannot understand deities or their alien motives?

This is assuming that a rain dance works the same way as chemistry. But what if a rain dance instead works like how dancing works to attract a date? In that case, it's not something where the identical moves always have the identical results. A powerful magician might be like Brad Pitt and always be able to get a date, but it's still the case that it's not like laboratory chemistry - but instead like personal chemistry.

Quote from: jhkim on August 02, 2021, 08:37:11 PM

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 02, 2021, 08:09:21 PM
The thing is, magic itself is expected to have certain desired results. A rain dance is expected to bring rain, for example. This means you have to do certain things in a certain way to achieve the desired results- same as chemistry or such. In AD&D it's the same thing: certain moves, words, materials...to cast that fireball.

What would be "mysterious" about magic is WHY doing these things would work. That could remain unknown. A cleric may be able to do things because of spells given by deities, but what if one cannot understand deities or their alien motives?

This is assuming that a rain dance works the same way as chemistry. But what if a rain dance instead works like how dancing works to attract a date? In that case, it's not something where the identical moves always have the identical results. A powerful magician might be like Brad Pitt and always be able to get a date, but it's still the case that it's not like laboratory chemistry - but instead like personal chemistry.

Greetings!

Very true, Jhkim. And in addition, yeah, some men don't need to have dance skills at all. They can just *stand there* and look at a woman, or pass by her and simply say "Hi there".

The variables involved with the individual man, and the particular woman--yeah. Limitless. Of course, some particular combinations get  magical relationship going *fast*--while with a different woman, inspires merely a shrug of indifference. It can be interesting to view Magic in some similar ways. There are general principles that are time-tested and very helpful, and work most of the time, with lots of different people--and yet, there is always a significant degree of uncertainty and unpredictability.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK