How Much Trouble Would Playing Jesus As A Vampire Cause?

BoxCrayonTales · April 04, 2021, 05:58:28 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: Reckall on April 04, 2021, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 01:33:53 PM
Quote from: ReckallHmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear.
Actually, it's a really old bit of VtM lore... if a Catholic Priest with True Faith performs the Mass then a vampire can drink the communion wine (provided they make their conscience check to avoid it scalding them like liquid sunlight)
Er... I don't see how a oWoD Vampire can do a "conscience check" (except maybe if you follow a very narrow - and boring - path; is that even possible in the setting?) Dabbling in magic would be grounds enough to end up cremated.
oWoD Vampire literally has a stat called Conscience which, along with Self-Control and Courage, define your ability to resist the influence of The Beast upon you.

The normal role for conscience checks is if you perform an evil act to see if you actually feel remorse for it or just say "fuck it" and take one step closer to being nothing more than a monster.

In this case, they used the conscience stat as basically a "are you still open enough to the saving grace of God to receive the blood of God as spiritual nourishment or do you fall short and instead get burned by the holy power of God contained within?"

It's very weirdly designed. The more conscience points you have, the easier it is to get away with horrific acts without dinging your humanity meter. You'd think it would work the opposite or something.

A realistic depiction of how guilt affects you would work completely differently. You would suffer PTSD as a result of guilt, not the absence of guilt.

Reckall · April 04, 2021, 06:06:14 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: Reckall on April 04, 2021, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 01:33:53 PM
Quote from: ReckallHmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear.
Actually, it's a really old bit of VtM lore... if a Catholic Priest with True Faith performs the Mass then a vampire can drink the communion wine (provided they make their conscience check to avoid it scalding them like liquid sunlight)
Er... I don't see how a oWoD Vampire can do a "conscience check" (except maybe if you follow a very narrow - and boring - path; is that even possible in the setting?) Dabbling in magic would be grounds enough to end up cremated.
oWoD Vampire literally has a stat called Conscience which, along with Self-Control and Courage, define your ability to resist the influence of The Beast upon you.

No, I can dig that. My problem is that a Vampire Conscience =/= Christian Conscience. Strong homoeroticism freely lived, for example, would pass a Vampire "Conscience Check" and still be a big no-no for Christian Conscience.

PFrota · April 04, 2021, 06:24:55 PM

Quote from: Greentongue on April 03, 2021, 08:50:09 PM
Death cult, lots of references to blood, keeps coming back, wants people to "let him in".

I can see a game where that is a secret truth. I can also see people going absolutely crazy just mentioning the idea.

Could it Ever be done? Is there a group of people that would actually give it a go?

If MY group ever sees this post they'll never stop bothering me to play this as a chronicle in Vampire the Masquerade. We absolutely don't care about the implications - we are 50% atheists, 25% agnostics and 25% rare-breed Catholics who can take a joke and separate real life from gaming (yeah, I know, these are rare). I also remember the Malkavian clanbook mentioning that the biggest prank they ever did was a simple body theft in the Middle East around the time of the Emperor Tiberius.

Omega · April 04, 2021, 07:07:29 PM

Quote from: Greentongue on April 03, 2021, 08:50:09 PM
Death cult, lots of references to blood, keeps coming back, wants people to "let him in".

I can see a game where that is a secret truth. I can also see people going absolutely crazy just mentioning the idea.

Could it Ever be done? Is there a group of people that would actually give it a go?

Im pretty sure exactly this has been done either in some novel or a game. Either directly or in reference to as an example. One of the 2000 era Dracula movies had Dracula being actually a cursed Judas.
I mean really, theres Hermaphrodite Alien Jesus and Wile E Coyote Jesus so Vampire Jesus makes as much sense. Fits right in with Alien Lizard Elvis Barney...

HappyDaze · April 04, 2021, 07:09:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 05:58:28 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: Reckall on April 04, 2021, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 01:33:53 PM
Quote from: ReckallHmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear.
Actually, it's a really old bit of VtM lore... if a Catholic Priest with True Faith performs the Mass then a vampire can drink the communion wine (provided they make their conscience check to avoid it scalding them like liquid sunlight)
Er... I don't see how a oWoD Vampire can do a "conscience check" (except maybe if you follow a very narrow - and boring - path; is that even possible in the setting?) Dabbling in magic would be grounds enough to end up cremated.
oWoD Vampire literally has a stat called Conscience which, along with Self-Control and Courage, define your ability to resist the influence of The Beast upon you.

The normal role for conscience checks is if you perform an evil act to see if you actually feel remorse for it or just say "fuck it" and take one step closer to being nothing more than a monster.

In this case, they used the conscience stat as basically a "are you still open enough to the saving grace of God to receive the blood of God as spiritual nourishment or do you fall short and instead get burned by the holy power of God contained within?"
It's very weirdly designed. The more conscience points you have, the easier it is to get away with horrific acts without dinging your humanity meter. You'd think it would work the opposite or something.

A realistic depiction of how guilt affects you would work completely differently. You would suffer PTSD as a result of guilt, not the absence of guilt.

They chose a poor name for the trait. What it represents is your ability to process/rationalize what you've done and move past it. Resilience is the more popular term for such today (at least IRL, if not necessarily in games).

crkrueger · April 04, 2021, 08:32:41 PM

Jesus as a Vampire isn't very original. The parallels are pretty obvious.

BoxCrayonTales · April 04, 2021, 09:06:26 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 04, 2021, 07:09:06 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 05:58:28 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: Reckall on April 04, 2021, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 01:33:53 PM
Quote from: ReckallHmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear.
Actually, it's a really old bit of VtM lore... if a Catholic Priest with True Faith performs the Mass then a vampire can drink the communion wine (provided they make their conscience check to avoid it scalding them like liquid sunlight)
Er... I don't see how a oWoD Vampire can do a "conscience check" (except maybe if you follow a very narrow - and boring - path; is that even possible in the setting?) Dabbling in magic would be grounds enough to end up cremated.
oWoD Vampire literally has a stat called Conscience which, along with Self-Control and Courage, define your ability to resist the influence of The Beast upon you.

The normal role for conscience checks is if you perform an evil act to see if you actually feel remorse for it or just say "fuck it" and take one step closer to being nothing more than a monster.

In this case, they used the conscience stat as basically a "are you still open enough to the saving grace of God to receive the blood of God as spiritual nourishment or do you fall short and instead get burned by the holy power of God contained within?"
It's very weirdly designed. The more conscience points you have, the easier it is to get away with horrific acts without dinging your humanity meter. You'd think it would work the opposite or something.

A realistic depiction of how guilt affects you would work completely differently. You would suffer PTSD as a result of guilt, not the absence of guilt.
They chose a poor name for the trait. What it represents is your ability to process/rationalize what you've done and move past it. Resilience is the more popular term for such today (at least IRL, if not necessarily in games).

That still doesn't reflect a realistic human psychology. The kind of person who can repeatedly commit horrific atrocities without any psychological trauma is a clinical sociopath and/or a religious fanatic who doesn't see their victims as human beings, not resilient. If you don't rationalize really awful shit you did, then that means you have a conscience. Not the opposite.

All the various karma meters in WW games have worked like this and it doesn't reflect real human psychology. I despise those mechanics.

This Guy · April 04, 2021, 10:03:30 PM

Just seems like a kind of boring concept on its face, a real-preaching-to-the-edgelord-choir thing. You'd probably have to develop it out with a lot more nuance than just the elevator pitch to make it worthwhile.

Kyle Aaron · April 04, 2021, 11:35:43 PM

Quote from: GeekEclectic on April 04, 2021, 03:32:03 AM
I don't think it's possible to do this without coming across as either 12 years old or just a massive edgelord, but if you're cool with that, . . . *shrugs*

Pretty much. I mean, I'm Jewish and I still think it's offensive, like that idiot's "artwork" Piss Christ.

Appropriate people's cultures, don't try to insult them just to be edgy.

ScytheSong · April 04, 2021, 11:42:23 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 09:06:26 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 04, 2021, 07:09:06 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 05:58:28 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: Reckall on April 04, 2021, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 01:33:53 PM
Quote from: ReckallHmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear.
Actually, it's a really old bit of VtM lore... if a Catholic Priest with True Faith performs the Mass then a vampire can drink the communion wine (provided they make their conscience check to avoid it scalding them like liquid sunlight)
Er... I don't see how a oWoD Vampire can do a "conscience check" (except maybe if you follow a very narrow - and boring - path; is that even possible in the setting?) Dabbling in magic would be grounds enough to end up cremated.
oWoD Vampire literally has a stat called Conscience which, along with Self-Control and Courage, define your ability to resist the influence of The Beast upon you.

The normal role for conscience checks is if you perform an evil act to see if you actually feel remorse for it or just say "fuck it" and take one step closer to being nothing more than a monster.

In this case, they used the conscience stat as basically a "are you still open enough to the saving grace of God to receive the blood of God as spiritual nourishment or do you fall short and instead get burned by the holy power of God contained within?"
It's very weirdly designed. The more conscience points you have, the easier it is to get away with horrific acts without dinging your humanity meter. You'd think it would work the opposite or something.

A realistic depiction of how guilt affects you would work completely differently. You would suffer PTSD as a result of guilt, not the absence of guilt.
They chose a poor name for the trait. What it represents is your ability to process/rationalize what you've done and move past it. Resilience is the more popular term for such today (at least IRL, if not necessarily in games).
That still doesn't reflect a realistic human psychology. The kind of person who can repeatedly commit horrific atrocities without any psychological trauma is a clinical sociopath and/or a religious fanatic who doesn't see their victims as human beings, not resilient. If you don't rationalize really awful shit you did, then that means you have a conscience. Not the opposite.

All the various karma meters in WW games have worked like this and it doesn't reflect real human psychology. I despise those mechanics.

I may have said, "No, that isn't Conscience, we're changing that" at first glance, but when I was running the "Blood bonded to Jesus!" subplot, it was a Composure check to get it going (Willpower plus True Faith vs. a Difficult target (was that 8? it might have been 9...))

Stephen Tannhauser · April 04, 2021, 11:50:26 PM

Ah, now we know what the real trouble is that the concept would cause: it would provoke another rules argument about exactly what Conscience is supposed to mean in V:tM psychology.

HappyDaze · April 05, 2021, 05:55:39 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 09:06:26 PM
That still doesn't reflect a realistic human psychology. The kind of person who can repeatedly commit horrific atrocities without any psychological trauma is a clinical sociopath and/or a religious fanatic who doesn't see their victims as human beings, not resilient. If you don't rationalize really awful shit you did, then that means you have a conscience. Not the opposite.

All the various karma meters in WW games have worked like this and it doesn't reflect real human psychology. I despise those mechanics.

The vast majority of games have an assumption that PCs inflict casual violence without any lasting psychological trauma. WW is really no worse than others in this regard.

Omega · April 05, 2021, 05:59:51 AM

I would not call most dungeon delves "casual violence"...

HappyDaze · April 05, 2021, 06:07:31 AM

Quote from: Omega on April 05, 2021, 05:59:51 AM
I would not call most dungeon delves "casual violence"...

Even in D&D, dungeon delves are not everything. Beyond D&D, there are entire genres that don't have much of anything like a dungeon delve. Shadowrun, Star Wars, Torg, L5R, Conspiracy X, and the range of WH40K games are just ones I can see on my shelves at a glance.

Pat · April 05, 2021, 07:46:26 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on April 04, 2021, 10:03:53 AM
Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2021, 07:17:39 AM
Quote from: SHARK on April 04, 2021, 06:56:59 AM
Greetings!

The idea is terrible and very offensive. Advertising and promoting such a game depicting such, as Jaeger mentioned, is like a neon sign invitation to being beaten to death with a lead pipe. Considering that in our world right now, people have been attacked, beaten and or killed for far less.

Fast food workers not bringing food fast enough and being assaulted or killed;

Store employees asking someone politely to wear a mask and being assaulted and beaten;

Innocent people sitting outside choosing not to wear a mask, and having women come up to them and attack them and throw hot coffee in their face;

Uber drivers picking someone up for a ride and being tazered to death.

So, promoting a "game" depicting Jesus as a vampire...just no. I don't think such a "game" would be a good idea and would recommend against it very strongly.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
I agree, it's really important that we avoid anything that might offend anyone. We must make sure everything is bland and inoffensive, or we deserve all the mostly peaceful bone-breaking that comes our way. Because violence isn't real violence, it's words that are the real violence. Censorship is the only way to make the spaces we exist in safe and secure!

Well, I understand your point, and I think Shark is over the top, but I censor myself ALL THE TIME. As a matter of fact any and every even close to sensible person does, because it is a form of civility. I am not for attempting to do the absolutely most provoking and offensive thing possible. Many places do have what are called "fighting words", meaning if you intentionally provoke someone with your offensive words, and get your ass kicked, the police can consider it personal combat or an affray (misdemeanor) instead of an assault. I am not certain such a premise as the OP put forth would rise to that, but I also do not intend to present games where rape is a main theme, or genocide, or serial torture and murder. Because all of those to certain people are on the same ground.

Lots of people worry about things being too bland, and I get that, but though I favor spicy food alot, there is such a thing as way too spicy. I find the people who THINK they want super spicy are often the ones I see sweating bullets and sending the order back after a couple bites.

Self-censorship is valid. I'd say vampire Jesus has more to do with your group than any broader principles. Would someone in your group feel uncomfortable? Then don't be an ass. Are you deliberately trying to piss off some people in your group? Get a different group, and also try to grow up. But otherwise, have fun with it. It's something that will offend a small subset of the population and will make a larger section uncomfortable, but that's about marketing and market size not existential dread. These aren't fighting words.