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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Greentongue on September 05, 2020, 03:36:38 PM

Title: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Greentongue on September 05, 2020, 03:36:38 PM
With all the resources for playing 3D, virtually or not, at what point has the shark been jumped?

At what point does the setup time taken exceed the enjoyment of the results?


I remember back in the day we had graph paper and blank plain lineless paper to make maps.
Maybe photo copy a map to alter as needed.
Now there virtual 3D objects and animated miniatures with lighting and sound. Also 3D printed scenery and miniatures.


Trying to build a 3D map just the way you want and fill it with miniatures of matching quality can be a real task.
Not to mention a drain on the wallet.


So, where do you draw the lane and have you walked that line back from experience?
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 05, 2020, 03:52:56 PM
When I was into 4th edition, I did a lot of papercraft 3-D terrain. I found I used more elevation and even had an encounter where Bhrogs (Dark Sun ogre things) were up on a cliff, tossing rocks down on the PCs. There was a lot of climbing and falling involved.
I don't think I would have run that encounter quite the same in theater of the mind or even on a 2-D map.


But preparing 3-D papercraft terrain was a huge amount of prep, and I don't plan to do it often, if ever again. But it did broaden my encounter design expertise.
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: finarvyn on September 05, 2020, 06:08:43 PM
Most of my adventures are done as "theater of the mind" or on a plain tan battlemat with markers. None of that fancy 3D stuff for thsi guy. ;)
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: VisionStorm on September 05, 2020, 07:07:05 PM
I recently went back to playing Fallout 4 around a month ago and the thing that really draws me into the game and keeps me playing is building my settlements. This time around I tried to go the extra mile building separate houses and such (I usually end up building these huge ass structures and stick all the settlers living together), and adding a lot of details with the decorations, shop areas, bars, etc. and interconnecting everything through walkways, railings and the like.

If there was an easy to use RP-focused piece of software that could be used to build up structures and even 3D terrain and stuff like that, I could see myself building whole adventure maps in my computer, then connecting it to a flatscreen TV and just presenting whole adventure like that. Hell, I would build the whole town. If they had a high detail character editor (like a lot of computer RPGs have, but with extra stuff for non-human creatures, like Champions Online or similar) I would build a bunch of NPCs and monsters, and put them all over the place or just drop them in as needed. It would be freaking awesome!

But doing actual physical pieces or buying up miniatures is too much work and costs too much. Plus where do I even store them afterwards, and what do I do with them after the adventure’s done? Use the same terrain over and over, like enemies can’t come up with a different location to plot their schemes? Doing this stuff digitally seems far more convenient IMO, and far less expensive, assuming there is a one time purchase somewhere you could use to build your own stuff and save your assets in a hard drive.
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on September 05, 2020, 07:44:28 PM
Last time we played in person, my DM used 2D printed maps.

The 3d looks awesome, but time, storage, cost would all be large concerns. My favorite FLGS in Mount Prospect, IL has various things which tempt me in the slightest way, like a 3D pirate ship. But yeah, 2D works fine if the party is invested. 
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Greentongue on September 05, 2020, 07:52:12 PM
If there was an easy to use RP-focused piece of software that could be used to build up structures and even 3D terrain and stuff like that, I could see myself building whole adventure maps in my computer, then connecting it to a flatscreen TV and just presenting whole adventure like that. Hell, I would build the whole town. If they had a high detail character editor (like a lot of computer RPGs have, but with extra stuff for non-human creatures, like Champions Online or similar) I would build a bunch of NPCs and monsters, and put them all over the place or just drop them in as needed. It would be freaking awesome!


Have you looked at Tabletop Simulator or the in beta TaleSpire? Both allow you to build elaborate 3D maps and scenes with animated effects like fog and fire.
Does take a lot of effort to build from scratch but there are varying levels to details available. Kind of fiddly but you can get amazing results.
Brings me back to the original question. Is the effort worth it for a gaming session that the characters may not even pause at the location?
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on September 05, 2020, 10:34:18 PM
$200 is my limit.
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Cave Bear on September 05, 2020, 11:02:50 PM
Space, both shelf and table, is at a premium in my area. Most of my face-to-face gaming has taken place in bars and coffee shops. Everything you want to use in a game has to fit in a back-pack and survive a trip through the subway. 3-D terrain looks cool, but it's just impractical for my purposes.
Tabletop simulator is another story, though. You can do all kinds of cool stuff with that.
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: WayneThePayne on September 05, 2020, 11:14:15 PM
I feel like wargaming miniatures and virtual tabletops lend themselves better to actual wargaming unless you were to put in the work to prepare a near-limitless virtual environment for your players to explore. Even with virtual tabletops, I think the time investment alone would be too much (and if you put in less work, I think it would be doomed to feel awkwardly video-gamey).

I do love the tabletop miniatures hobby, and I'd like to introduce it to my daughter, but I would never get back into buying actual minis. As soon as I get a better job, I plan to get a $200-400 DLP resin printer and just print tray-fulls of minis and scenery for dirt cheap.
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Greentongue on September 06, 2020, 08:08:52 AM
How much of your usual game is unique and couldn't be "set pieces"?  The same basic place. maybe with some different "window dressing" to differentiate?


The 20x20 room, the road through the woods, the hallway into the big room, the cave entrance, ...
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Marchand on September 06, 2020, 11:12:15 AM

I steer clear of scenery and miniatures for the same reason a friend told me he avoids gambling - he's pretty sure if he tried it, he would get addicted.


Apart from the cost and practical issues around storage, I am also really suspicious of letting the miniatures and scenery collection dictate the game content.


I've seen videos of people using monitors horizontally, set into a tabletop. It looked really nifty and of course you have the flexibility of accessing your entire library of digitally stored maps. Plus if using a virtual tabletop (er... on your real tabletop), you can employ fog of war etc. effects. It's intriguing, but I can't see the missus going for it...
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Greentongue on September 06, 2020, 02:20:08 PM

It's intriguing, but I can't see the missus going for it...
I assume you have seen the "in play" videos and the examples of what is possible?
Like: [size=78%]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2kkQ-K0ARw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2kkQ-K0ARw)[/size]
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: danskmacabre on September 06, 2020, 07:56:26 PM
When I was running Dnd 5E, I'd bring along lots of minis I've painted up over the years and a Vinyl battlemat.
I did acquire some dungeon tiles (3d printed squares) when I got a good deal very cheap with the DnD 5e core books, some minis and the seller threw in the dungeon tiles after some negotiation.
I wouldn't have specifically bought them otherwise.

For other RPGs, I often didn't use minis at all or the Battlemat
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 06, 2020, 09:24:17 PM
There was a very short-lived game called 'HeroScape' which used plastic hex components to form three-dimensional terrain. The game didn't sell well, and would be a footnote... except that the hex sizes were just PERFECT for Battletech.


Trust me, it's one thing to know there's level 3 hills in the way; it's another to be able to see 'em.
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: GameDaddy on September 07, 2020, 12:28:14 AM
Ahh, I love my minis. I found it is totally worth it to do fabulous set ups and games that are visually appealing. Just about ready to finish the latest batch... Just need to paint the bases, a final gloss coat, and flocking.

(https://i.imgur.com/xhFd0F3.jpg)

(https://imgur.com/xhFd0F3)
(https://i.imgur.com/PhiwQ93.jpg)


(https://i.imgur.com/pbjAeaL.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/PhiwQ93)

(https://imgur.com/pbjAeaL)
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: dkabq on September 07, 2020, 06:55:59 AM
With all the resources for playing 3D, virtually or not, at what point has the shark been jumped?

At what point does the setup time taken exceed the enjoyment of the results?



It depends.


For me, I like terrain and miniatures. And I like making terrain and painting miniatures. And my players like the miniatures and terrain. So, I use miniatures and terrain to the extent that I can within the time that I have for RPGing.


YMWV.
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: LiferGamer on September 07, 2020, 09:45:09 AM
Overhead bridges, fighting vertically, bad guys hurling rocks down upon you while your mage spider climbs up desperate to defenestrate the asshole...
I find using my terrain inspires me to make new interesting situations and is a lot of fun to design.

Here's my usual setup:  Black Magic's Stackers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDxzoanAC1c) and Dungeon Craft's Ultimate Dungeon Terrain (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQqhTiE7i84).


I did it on the cheap with an $9 lazy susan and blue tack for the base/connector. 

Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Marchand on September 07, 2020, 11:22:23 PM
I assume you have seen the "in play" videos and the examples of what is possible?
Like: [size=78%]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2kkQ-K0ARw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2kkQ-K0ARw)[/size]


I meant more like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jqf-zysYYuI), with apologies to those who don't like clicking links from a forum - basically it's a 55" screen mounted flat in a table. I have to admit it looks amazing. But potential marital constraints have not gone away. Nothing says "neckbeard" quite like having a large TV mounted in a table...
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Greentongue on September 08, 2020, 01:38:13 PM
Certainly amazing for those that can still meet Face 2 Face still.
This just highlights my question. Is this level of investment worth it?


Every game has a high level of expectations set for the DM to deliver "video game" level of graphics and animation.
The digital objects used are expected to be related to the description of the scene the action is taking place in.
Putting the DM in the position of scouring the internet for matching content or manually creating it in a timely fashion for each upcoming game.


Making sure the digital content matches the feel of the description of the rest of the game up to this point.
Making sure that they are consistent so you don't have grim dark mixed with cartoon style in a jarring fashion.
 
Still, just using a blank sheet of digital paper, a digital pen, and  a handful of digital miniatures seems less than what the potential is.
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: estar on September 08, 2020, 02:06:48 PM
Every game has a high level of expectations set for the DM to deliver "video game" level of graphics and animation. The digital objects used are expected to be related to the description of the scene the action is taking place in. Putting the DM in the position of scouring the internet for matching content or manually creating it in a timely fashion for each upcoming game.
This is inaccurate and only applies to some groups some of the time. Based on my experience this attitude is not held by the majority of hobbyists.




Certainly amazing for those that can still meet Face 2 Face still.
This just highlights my question. Is this level of investment worth it?
One makes the investment because they can and they and their group enjoys the spectacle it brings. If one feels like they have to make such an investment, then they need to find a different group.


As for myself, I used battlemat, dry erase, props, and minis since the early 80s. An important part of my enjoyment from using it was because of the clarity using it had because I am 50% deaf in a way that hearing aids doesn't fully correct.


Now that I am older and have a bit more disposable income, I bought into a grand of Dwarven Forge. I got it because I wanted to get it.  After the City Kickstarter, I realized they were more about producing diorama pieces so skipped further DF KS unless they related to the dungeon, or cavern sets I gotten earlier.


Nothing bad about diorama pieces, if that one jam, but it isn't mine. Nor did I feel need to purchase beyond what I had. I am not looking to construct a whole dungeon at once. I just need enough quantity and variety to build out the immediate area that the players are aware of. When I hit that I stopped buying whole sets.


Each person I know who referee, have their own perspective on how much they want to invest and  in what form. The key thing is to buy at the level that is fun, affordable, and works with one's style

Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 08, 2020, 03:38:06 PM
My current setup is a tupperware tub of various miniatures I've collected over the years. Mostly the pre-paints from the D&D "wars" series. And some I've painted myself. A smaller tub of sci-fi miniatures and some spaceships especially put together for Starfinder. A few of the blank grid maps I can draw on with a dry erase pen, and a couple of starfield maps.
We do a lot of proxying, as long as we have miniatures that come close to what they're supposed to represent.
 
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: LiferGamer on September 08, 2020, 05:51:11 PM
Don't get into it unless you had some love either digital modeling excetera for that side, and don't enjoy the Miniatures Hobby in and of itself.


You're the DM you have enough to do.  If your side hobby isn't computer modeling or miniature painting, go low-key with Lego stand-ins and be done.

Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Razor 007 on September 08, 2020, 10:04:00 PM
3D or 2D miniatures out on the tabletop to demonstrate relative positioning, without 3D terrain; is most common for me.
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Omega on September 09, 2020, 11:53:49 AM
There was a very short-lived game called 'HeroScape' which used plastic hex components to form three-dimensional terrain. The game didn't sell well, and would be a footnote... except that the hex sizes were just PERFECT for Battletech.

Trust me, it's one thing to know there's level 3 hills in the way; it's another to be able to see 'em.
Actually HeroScape chugged along for a good while before WOTC killed it off as usual.
First set was in 2004.
Then Hasbro handed it off to WOTC in 2010 and they transitioned it into D&D HeroScape. And ended it in the same year.
So 6 years and quite a few sets.
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 09, 2020, 02:03:58 PM
There was a very short-lived game called 'HeroScape' which used plastic hex components to form three-dimensional terrain. The game didn't sell well, and would be a footnote... except that the hex sizes were just PERFECT for Battletech.

Trust me, it's one thing to know there's level 3 hills in the way; it's another to be able to see 'em.
Actually HeroScape chugged along for a good while before WOTC killed it off as usual.
First set was in 2004.
Then Hasbro handed it off to WOTC in 2010 and they transitioned it into D&D HeroScape. And ended it in the same year.
So 6 years and quite a few sets.
It's still great to use for Battletech games :)
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Greentongue on September 09, 2020, 02:07:36 PM


For those interested in HeroScape, Tabletop Simulator has an unlimited supply.


Again, the question is how much time do you invest in creating a 3D scene even when you have all the supplies you need to do so? While I like creating a diorama, for gaming there has to be some "break even" point I would think.
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: estar on September 09, 2020, 03:31:13 PM
Again, the question is how much time do you invest in creating a 3D scene even when you have all the supplies you need to do so? While I like creating a diorama, for gaming there has to be some "break even" point I would think.
As long as it takes to verbally describe the detail. If it takes any longer I generally don't bother. There are exceptions of course. For example I built out the central section of the City State of the Invincible Overlords as a result of a major event occurring while the PCs were there. I did that before the session. With the City Dwarven Forge I had building of a village prepped a handful of time. But again I knew the PCs will be in the locale a while.




Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Omega on September 09, 2020, 08:45:07 PM
It's still great to use for Battletech games :)
Its great for Battletech games.
As for crafting 3d terrain. There are all sorts of ways to go about it. I prefer the more flattened tiles and the 3d comes from the furniture and decorations within. Makes it easier to handle the minis.
Title: Re: How Much is Too Much?
Post by: Greentongue on September 13, 2020, 01:01:50 PM
I think I may have reached a happy medium by using very large hexes and customizing them.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2226969274&fbclid=IwAR0cjLdPJwO10NKknzl6NMb7buDE3N9XaOMfGs2hr27arZzWsRUXavHAus4


This allows for cut & pasting the ones that repeat while giving enough variation to make each scene unique.
The big hexes lets a map be filled quickly, so that more time is spent using the map than making it.