How nonsensical can a dungeon be without your players complaining? I don't mean having goofy monsters or comedy, I mean things that are illogical: a Giant creature in a room with no doors big enough for him to get out of, an animal locked away in a room it can't open a door to that somehow hasn't starved to death, a dungeon that had been completely sealed for 10000 years that somehow has a bunch of non-undead intelligent monsters just living in it, a mishmash of creatures living right next to each other without killing each other, etc?

Do they allow a certain amount of irrationality? None at all? Or do they really not care about this kind of thing?

I don't recall it ever coming up. As a player some of my favourite games were 'irrational' like Land Beyond the Magic Mirror.

I prefer there to be a reason. But I'm not one of these knuckledraggers online who cant "believe" in a dungeon unless every little damn thing is explained to them.

Ok so this place is sealed and yet there are monsters here? Is it some maniacs tomb? Then guess what? MAGIC! Even if they don't say it. Yes you morons it was MAGIC!

So the monsters are living in proximity when they normally shouldnt. So? Probably its either at this state for survival. Or its at this state through force of will of someone powerful, or it is imminent to collapse and the PCs just happened on it just before. Or... MAGIC!

Yes there is ventilation even if its never mentioned. Even if its as simple as MAGIC! Don't be stupid. Do we have to also explain to you that a boat floats on water or else "it makes no sense!". Guess what? It floats by... MAGIC!

Etc ad freaking nausium.

I like there to be some pattern to it. Even if that pattern really is just "A crazy wizard did it!" or "That mighty chief told us to work together!" or "If we don't then adventurers will massacre us!" and so on. If there are orcs and lizard men working together then I expect some sort of valid reason. If there is a sealed dungeon and there are monsters there I just assume its kept that way with magic. If its not sealed then there is likely some sort of ecosystem going on that the PCs might notice. Might never know.

Though one of my favourite old dungeons I created had the PCs open it up and discover a-lot of dead monsters. And at the end its dead creator. He had failed to take into account that little breathing thing and they'd all suffocated. The players were edging room to room wondering what the hell happened and where the heck whatever killed everyone was. No wounds. no signs of violence or foul play.

In answer to this and your other threads: nobody cares, so long as the players are all fun.

Just imagine Jeff Goldblum as your DM, and Christopher Walken as the paladin.

"You're covered in the stench of goblin blood."
"I really don't care. It smells like money."

https://jasonsvoices.com/dungeons-dragons-dorks-episodes-1-5/

My players, both sets, could not care less because they would likely fail to notice. Someone might make an offhanded quip on the rare occasion as he throws them bones, but otherwise the ecology of the dungeon remains a graduate level course and the "classroom" is filled with kindergarteners.

Personally, in my old age, I prefer a dungeon to make some sort of sense. I'd prefer to investigate a lair or cult's haven.

But it only has to work with its own internal logic... So if the game is somewhat 'gonzo' then one could expect some kind of strangeness and that works for me too - because it works in the context of the game.

IME it's only a problem if it bugs the GM and affects his/her ability to present the dungeon effectively.

Very much.  They need some sort of internal (if twisted) logic.  In fact, they'll try and rationalize what makes sense to pre-plan for any surprises and ambushes.  After all, in D&D each monster race has it's own methods of dealing with problems.

I run for players that really enjoy digging into secrets, mysteries, and other hidden things.  They like being able to make informed guesses and sometimes deduce successfully from incomplete information.  So there has to be enough internal logic to make that work.  There can be some things that make no sense, but they really stick out in that environment, since the players are actively looking for patterns.  

I usually have some kind of oddball facet of the campaign that can account for things initially not making sense, something a little more focused than "magic did it."  The erratic portal travel in my current campaign is an example of that.  In fact, the players just found one of the erratic portals because there was a lot of large gears and machinery in a cave with entrances too small to accommodate it.  After searching for secret doors and coming up short, they eventually activated the portal.

This tendency does not generally extend to trivial stuff that isn't the focus of the campaign.  No one is going to look for a portal because the goblins apparently have no latrine nearby.  I'm probably not explaining it well, but I'm in sync with the players enough that it works.

My players always notice, always assume there is a logical (if magical) reason for any situation,  try to guess the reason and how the DM intends it to work for or against them, and care not one whit if they come up blank for answers to any of those questions. "It's a mystery!", they shrug, shiver with the sense of the Unknown, and carry on.

Quote from: RPGPundit;995084How nonsensical can a dungeon be without your players complaining? I don't mean having goofy monsters or comedy, I mean things that are illogical: a Giant creature in a room with no doors big enough for him to get out of, an animal locked away in a room it can't open a door to that somehow hasn't starved to death, a dungeon that had been completely sealed for 10000 years that somehow has a bunch of non-undead intelligent monsters just living in it, a mishmash of creatures living right next to each other without killing each other, etc?

Do they allow a certain amount of irrationality? None at all? Or do they really not care about this kind of thing?

Depends on the player, but in general, they care and expect things to make some sense. Usually the way I present a game world, it conveys that things have a reason and make sense at least on an "it exists so it existed before and came from somewhere and that implies other things, unless it was conjured from thin air by some powerful specific in-game wizard (if those spells exist in this campaign, and BTW where do summoned creatures come from?", and so if something doesn't, they're not so likely to complain as to try to figure out why something seems to not make sense.

The examples you mentioned were are well past the line of obvious "this shouldn't exist, or it has to be magic/illusion" for my players, and for me creating stuff. I want stuff to have reasons for being there and a past and cause & effect and side-effects, even if it is entirely plausible that it's there.

Depending on the campaign, there may still be things that are hard to justify that I put in without realizing there were logical reasons why not. When/if I realize there are reasons why not, I tend to either think of a reason how/why, or put in a past event that changes it. i.e. if I've got two groups living right next to each other (either at a wilderness/dungeon location or hamlets in march distance), either they need a context that has them co-exist, hopefully an interesting one that can provide some fun play, or actually one was there before the other showed up and they fought and one won and the loser is either a ruin or a dependent/imprisoned group.

I often wonder where to draw the line on the ratio of population to military and adventurers and violence to support the amount of combat PCs/adventurers should see without it being a wild exception, and/or the population be dying off and/or the culture be adventurer-dominated. It bothers me when I notice that the death rate around the PCs implies that the population should be much higher and/or the local authorities should probably be regarding the party as an (invading or rogue) powerful military unit.

I like adventure locations such as a dungeon to have a history of why the place is laid out as it is, what groups may live there or visit there, what their goals and ways of doing things are, and then I want to keep track of what's going on as the PCs visit it. So not "when you get to room 14, there will be some guards just returning from patrol" but what are the guard/patrol patterns, if the guards start getting attacked how will they and the community respond, etc.

(And, I tend not to buy published modules/adventures/settings.)

Q: How Much do Your Players Care if a Dungeon "Makes Sense"?

A: A lot. But I wouldn't be using it if it didn't so the point is moot.

Edit: I haven't bought a module in decades, though, so what I prefer may not be relevant.

Quote from: Zalman;995141My players always notice, always assume there is a logical (if magical) reason for any situation,  try to guess the reason and how the DM intends it to work for or against them, and care not one whit if they come up blank for answers to any of those questions. "It's a mystery!", they shrug, shiver with the sense of the Unknown, and carry on.

On top of that, sometimes the answers players come up with are so good, I'll include them in the game:

"How did the dragon survive in this cave for so long? How did it eat? I don't see an entrance big enough for a dragon. Why didn't the locals mention this, don't they know a dragon lives just a few miles away?"

Now as a DM, I might have forgotten theses details or simply not given a shit. HOWEVER, the imaginations of the players not only bailed me out, but set up future adventures:

"There must be a huge entrance concealed by magic."

"The dragon must fly out in search of prey. Since the local villagers never mentioned it, the dragon must roam far afield for victims."

Incoherence bothers the majority of my players (and myself) a lot. Unless it is deliberately a breach of the setting's default reality, I'd rather not bother with that material. It'd end up defaulting into Monte Python Holy Grail response about Camelot, "Let us not go. It is a silly place." They'd likely walk and let it be someone else's problem. Oh sure, you could "consequence them" and have the madness leak out and chase them across the world. But by then you should have the Buy-In Talk instead of railroading your players into an unwanted adventure.

Quote from: RPGPundit;995084How nonsensical can a dungeon be without your players complaining? I don't mean having goofy monsters or comedy, I mean things that are illogical: a Giant creature in a room with no doors big enough for him to get out of, an animal locked away in a room it can't open a door to that somehow hasn't starved to death, a dungeon that had been completely sealed for 10000 years that somehow has a bunch of non-undead intelligent monsters just living in it, a mishmash of creatures living right next to each other without killing each other, etc?

Do they allow a certain amount of irrationality? None at all? Or do they really not care about this kind of thing?

None at all. They assume things make sense, and if they see any of your examples, they'd try to find out how that works, and probably a way to turn it to their profit:).
If they see the animal or giant creature, they'd want to know who put it there, and who feeds it.
If they see the non-undead in the sealed dungeon, they'd want to find the stasis pods or conclude it has been breeched.
If they see the mish-mash of monsters living next to each other, they'd try to sic them on each other.

So, you'd better have an answer to all of the above;).