Based on a question asked to me by a subscriber, in this video I tried to give explanations as to how medieval people actually believed magic worked.

A distinction I have found fascinating to no end is; Supernatural as suspension of reality. Vs. Supernatural as opaque/hidden laws of reality.

Certainly a theme I like to play with, given it's a good way of making a firm distinction between Miracles and Magick. or other such forces.

There is a whole rant I could go on about scientific models and how older models are still perfectly good at predicting outcomes despite being objectively wrong about what they are describing. A good quote from Peter Watts' Blindsight I think sums up my thoughts on this

Quote"Not talking about case studies. Brains are survival engines, not truth detectors. If self-deception promotes fitness, the brain lies. Stops noticing— irrelevant things. Truth never matters. Only fitness. By now you don't experience the world as it exists at all. You experience a simulation built from assumptions. Shortcuts. Lies. Whole species is agnosiac by default."

Quote from: Socratic-DM on April 28, 2025, 01:44:01 PMA distinction I have found fascinating to no end is; Supernatural as suspension of reality. Vs. Supernatural as opaque/hidden laws of reality.

Certainly a theme I like to play with, given it's a good way of making a firm distinction between Miracles and Magick. or other such forces.

Yes, and almost all magic systems throughout the world actually operate on the concept of "hidden/little-known laws of reality". That's why they typically have a cosmology behind them, whether its the tree of life of the Qabalah, the 7 spheres, the Taijitu, etc.

A lot of magic systems in fantasy fiction feel artificial because they aren't founded in practical and spiritual applications like real belief systems. For most of human history, there wasn't a distinction between magic, religion and science. Ancient Egyptian physicians prayed to Serqet as they lanced scorpion stings, European kings would lay hands to cure the sick, alchemists would mix potions to effect changes on matter, etc.

Wait.  They didn't think magic worked based on slots per day or amnesia after you spoke the words?

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 01, 2025, 09:55:24 PMWait.  They didn't think magic worked based on slots per day or amnesia after you spoke the words?

It's kind of funny since the magic used by wizards in Vance's Dying Earth stories is often actually more like software loaded into the brain than like magic as conceived by real-life magical/spiritual traditions. It's a pretty innovative idea especially given when Vance was writing.

It actually makes sense that a game/rules system would actually emulate this model as it's deliberately mechanistic, but obviously the results are not great if you are trying to capture the feel of traditional magic.

I'm not sure if this is on-topic, but one thing that I've been pondering is how magicians tend to be liminal figures, meaning that they're on the borders in between categories somehow.

I wonder if anyone had good sources on this as a general trait, and ways that magicians are liminal. Magicians tend to be weird - hermits who dress in odd clothes, live on the borderlands, and so on.

Quote from: jhkim on May 02, 2025, 04:27:39 PMI'm not sure if this is on-topic, but one thing that I've been pondering is how magicians tend to be liminal figures, meaning that they're on the borders in between categories somehow.

I wonder if anyone had good sources on this as a general trait, and ways that magicians are liminal. Magicians tend to be weird - hermits who dress in odd clothes, live on the borderlands, and so on.

Worth noting that among the most famous of fictitious magicians, one version of Merlin was said to be a Cambion; fathered by the Devil to be the Antichrist until his mother baptized him (basically a justification for why he could work magic without being a servant of Hell).

Part mortal, part supernatural; absolutely a liminal figure there and almost a mirror-image of Tolkein's Gandolf, making me idly wonder how much of that Merlin version played into the creation of Gandolf.

But more on topic, one thing that show through with the real beliefs on magic is the idea of permissions; who can licitly work magic versus who cannot. Generally, magic outside of miracles from God was seen as illict for Christians. Thus, it makes sense that the role of good magicians in Christian tales must fall to liminal figures; edge cases who might have a loophole that allows its licit use. The redeemed antichrist, the old man who's lived out among the wilds he's learned to hear the spirits, someone who 'died' and came back with knowledge from the other side, etc.

Quote from: jhkim on May 02, 2025, 04:27:39 PMI'm not sure if this is on-topic, but one thing that I've been pondering is how magicians tend to be liminal figures, meaning that they're on the borders in between categories somehow.

I wonder if anyone had good sources on this as a general trait, and ways that magicians are liminal. Magicians tend to be weird - hermits who dress in odd clothes, live on the borderlands, and so on.

Well, if we're talking about real historical magicians, they were liminal figures in some ways. But more in the sense that a "tech bro" is a liminal figure: highly driven, eccentric, often socially unusual, even within their own professions (be it monk, university man, weird rural peasant, etc), and had a kind of knowledge that other people couldn't really understand. They could rise to high positions of fame and renown, but could also end up being suspected and not very socially acceptable.

Quote from: RPGPundit on Today at 10:46:05 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 02, 2025, 04:27:39 PMI'm not sure if this is on-topic, but one thing that I've been pondering is how magicians tend to be liminal figures, meaning that they're on the borders in between categories somehow.

I wonder if anyone had good sources on this as a general trait, and ways that magicians are liminal. Magicians tend to be weird - hermits who dress in odd clothes, live on the borderlands, and so on.

Well, if we're talking about real historical magicians, they were liminal figures in some ways. But more in the sense that a "tech bro" is a liminal figure: highly driven, eccentric, often socially unusual, even within their own professions (be it monk, university man, weird rural peasant, etc), and had a kind of knowledge that other people couldn't really understand. They could rise to high positions of fame and renown, but could also end up being suspected and not very socially acceptable.

To be more specific - there's an idea around popularized most recently by Harry Potter where magical ability is an inborn trait. So there are Wizard families and there are Muggles. This idea of aristocratic wizarding families seems inauthentic to me.

So the question is - how does someone become a magician? Magic might in theory be something that anyone can do - because it is the consequence of natural philosophy. But some people are clearly better than it than others. And magicians traditionally do seem weird, not likely to have normal homes and families.