Quote from: Omega;743903Problem is that in a wargame you are some faceless "force" directing the armies. You dont usually have a character down there with the troops.

Whereas RPGs put you right there as the character and its YOU on the line.

Ive seen players who are absolutely detached from their characters, oddly enough more often board gamers than wargamers. No clue why. Probably just random chance who I keep meeting. Others reeeeealy get into their characters and the death of one can be pretty shocking. That in and of itself is not a bad thing. It can be the sign of a really good RP.

The detachment-/-immersion threshold is weird.

The root of the problem isn't the playing an individual character. Otherwise you see this in any game that features the playing of an individual character like a gladiator game.

The problems stems from continuity and advancement over time in a single "thing". The thing in RPGs being the character that the player plays. What being valued is the time invested. Any game that features campaigns, advancement, continuity, and permanent loss will have this problem.

And understand advancement need not be mechanics, it could be in-game goods, it could be the in-game social network, anything that can be obtained, grown, and lost is prone to be latched on by players and be the object of their investment.

For me personally, I been gaming so long that I largely don't care emotionally. Don't get me wrong I will fight with all my wits to keep my character going, but if the end comes there always next one. And there WILL be the day when the next character will have to come as the campaign ends.

Experience enough of these, a person has to go 'meh' when character #43 dies.

What keep the game fresh for me is not the mechanics, or progression but the diversity of interaction with people, both players and the referee. The same for wargames. A good wargames allows for a diversity of strategy and tactics your opponent. This means despite the same old rules, no two games are ever alike and each offers a good challenge. The rules are just a structure for the players to challenge one another.

However wargames have a lot shorter legs than tabletop RPGs. The difference is because tabletop RPGs have more complex social interaction. Which holds our attention for longer. Done right it engages what I call the soap opera effect. That despite the same old rules, setting, and even characters the social aspect keep us tuned in for just one more session to see what the hell is going to happen.

Quote from: Premier;743919After all, you could have a WWII-themed Monopoly board where the locations are renamed after tanks and airplanes and Jail is called Oflag XIII-B, but it still wouldn't be a wargame. Same principle.

But that would be COOL!

I don't play as much as I used to, but I do play the historical stuff.

Still have Empires in Arms on shelf, waiting for the day when I can devote a metric ton of time to rounding people up and playing the game.

I play Combat Commander Europe and Warmachine equally. Fantasy and historical wargames scratch different itches.

Quote from: Benoist;743982It's dangerous to play games. You might end up losing once in a while (or a lot, if you suck at it).

OH THE HUMANITY!

That was about me playing Risk 2210. I ended up holed up on the moon and the other player was well towards taking that when the last turn ended. I was just bare able to punt him back off the moon.

Hey, Bobloblah: are you the same guy I see on some websites (Atlantic? Slate? I forget where) with the name Bob Loblaw Lobs Law Bombs?

Just wondering.

My favorites, plus highlights:

Harpoon -WTFPWNING the Ark Royal and QE2. Sheffield and Broadsword and sub also go down hard. VERY hard.

Squad Leader -killing two Tigers and a Stug with a truck-towed 3-inch AT gun. The other guy never drove buttoned again! For some reason, I always have good luck with AT guns either towed by Jeep/truck/mule or portees. This goes for Squad Leader as well as Steel Panthers.

Days of Decision -keeping French troops in the Rhineland/ winning the Spanish Civil War to the point that Italy and Germany cried uncle -i.e. no WW2 in Europe

World in Flames -(as Italy) The Italian Navy sank one British and one US carrier. Italy also took Gibraltar and held onto E. Africa, allowing its surface fleet and subs to cause all kinds of mischief -including sinking Allied ships in the Indian Ocean.

(as France) a successful counterattack into Germany. France didn't fall until January/February of 41 in this game.

In the last few years, I've moved from tabletop wargaming to computer wargaming, and the only serious game I play anymore is War In The Pacific.

I really don't have time anymore. I'd like to do some wargaming, especially looking at the Eastern Front of WWII in 1939, but I'm doing well to find time for RPGing.

Quote from: jeff37923;743849We found it worked best when we kept it small. Those mercenary tickets were usually 2-4 platoons of infantry at most or fast mechanized infantry in armored air/rafts with missiles. Zhodani with battle robots were a pain and we'd almost always retreat when we encountered them since we'd usually have just ACRs with some RAM grenades (and not enough of those).

Zho warbots were cloth and laser rifle? IMO the system didn't justify higher TL's by design, more just 5-9. They did sort of fall into the paper Panther trap (Striker wasn't designed by engineers), but a nice thing about sci-fi is that one could avoid the hitler fluffers like you run into with regular ww2 wargames. It was also weird that Striker really never got any support, no vehicle supplements, just a design here and there, like in a JTAS.

Quote from: mhensley;743887SL was my first rpg.  It was really tough to level up.  

Yeah, I think my best was a 9-2 Captain? Been 30 years though.

My first TSR game I played was a wargame, Battle of the Five Armies.

Quote from: Doughdee222;744045Hey, Bobloblah: are you the same guy I see on some websites (Atlantic? Slate? I forget where) with the name Bob Loblaw Lobs Law Bombs?

Just wondering.

Nah, although I do go by the same handle everywhere I am online.

Quote from: dragoner;744115Zho warbots were cloth and laser rifle? IMO the system didn't justify higher TL's by design, more just 5-9. They did sort of fall into the paper Panther trap (Striker wasn't designed by engineers), but a nice thing about sci-fi is that one could avoid the hitler fluffers like you run into with regular ww2 wargames. It was also weird that Striker really never got any support, no vehicle supplements, just a design here and there, like in a JTAS.

Yeah, we did get the most out of it as a design tool. We made a lot of civilian vehicles with it.

Quote from: jeff37923;744145Yeah, we did get the most out of it as a design tool. We made a lot of civilian vehicles with it.

JTAS had a regular car at one point; but I found it was just easier to say LMG destroys car from an role-playing standpoint, than to go through a bunch of rolls. Ultimately I wanted to like Striker more than I did.

Quote from: Old Geezer;743960Hmm.  I wonder when the mindset changed?  Because having just got back from GaryCon, everything from DUNGEON! to CIRCUS MAXIMUS! to DON'T GIVE UP THE SHIP was ALL considered wargames.

Heh. And in the second half of the 80s the same selection of games plus D&D, DAS SCHWARZE AUGE, TALISMAN, TITAN or BATTLETECH was considered "Adventure Games"...

I played

• Risk
• Diplomacy
• Civilization
• Warrior Knights
• Blood Royale
• Block War (a GW Judge Dredd boardgame)
• Kings & Things
• a Fantasy Risk homebrew (Axis & Allies complexity)
• Armageddon
• Blue & Grey
• Zargos Lords
• Conquest
• Junta
• Titan
• Britannia
• (and probably more that I forgot about)

and I would not consider myself a wargamer.