Good art is a plus for me but I can definitely live without art. I do agree that no art is usually better than bad art, keeping in mind that bad art is subjective. I find art isn't representative of the game and setting (like many of the works in THS, IMO) is actually worse than bad art as far killing the mood.

Quote from: Opaopajr;869015If there's a choice and I really had to put the effort into comparison shopping I guess I could say system. But I definitely am a setting person as I have plenty of systems.

Yeah, when I say 'System trumps art' I really mean 'system+setting=content trumps art'... because most of the time I'm mining the thing for ideas to use in a handful of go-to systems... not looking to run the new hotness.

Quote from: RPGPundit;868977Ok, so here's the real question: I think we all mostly agree that 2e Palladium has way better art than 1e Palladium.
But almost everyone believes that 1e Palladium is a much better SYSTEM than 2e Palladium (which ended up integrating the game to the more standard Palladium system found in Robotech, RIFTS, TMNT, etc).

So, which is more important? Would y'all rather have a better system with worse art? Or a less-good system with better art?

Hard to answer in that particular scenario; they are still quite close mechanically. Wenn I look at that fat, juicy softcover I do want to play it more than 1E, but I also know that 1E is less of a pain in the ass.

Quote from: Skarg;868285Yes, it is from Shadowrun. It's just an example of a visual style that I find very off-putting. I also can't stand Shadowrun, so maybe it's appropriate. But if the content were appropriate for a game I like, but that style were used in a game book I liked, I'd really dislike it and consider putting a sticker over the picture to avoid being annoyed by it when using the book.

ah thanks and yah i thought i recognized it just wasn't  sure

Quote from: Simlasa;868979Well, the fact that I bought Arrows of Indra kinda answers that...
(joking! I acually like the art in AoI)

I do too, but there's no question that the artistic quality of Dark Albion runs rings around Arrows of Indra. Or most RPGs, for that matter.

I don't mind art in RPGs, but it isn't the main reason I'm buying the books.  When I want art in an RPG, I'll go out and buy the art book for it.  (Like I did for Anima Beyond Fantasy)
If the art is evocative, then fine, Eoris, for example, has come really cool art.  It really gives the feel of the kind of world that the game is set in, and makes me want to play the game.  
But if the art is really bad, anything from SCAR studio or J Cobb in the older White Wolf books, I'll want to get rid of the book just because of that art.

There are a lot of RPGs on the market competing for my attention.  The ones with art that appeals to me are more likely to get a second look than ones with art I find unappealing.  It difficult to judge how a system will run at the tabletop while leafing through a book in a store or looking at a blurb for a pdf copy.  Things like art I like or a premise I find interesting are much easier to judge.

The purpose of (visual) art in an RPG is to evoke specific thoughts and feelings, and only becomes 'bad' when it evokes the wrong ones. Even pieces which look drawn by a child off their ADD meds are good as long as that's the mental and emotional space you want to put your readers.

Art helps establish what you want someone to think when playing your game and how you want them to feel about it. So if the art brings up feelings of sloth and incompetence simply by how well it's drawn, those feelings will affect how the rest of the game is evaluated, so you'd be better off not having that art at all.

And the advantage art has over writing is that it's absorbed quicker and it's less (though still) dependent on the personal experience of the reader for interpretation. So if you want to clearly and consistently share your experiences with an audience outside your experience, visuals are a more effective channel. After all, a rose by any other name may smell as sweet, but that still doesn't tell anyone exactly what it smells like.

So how important is art in an RPG book? It's critical. And while bad art can be more damaging than no art, no art is still almost as bad. Perhaps that's why so many RPG Kickstarters are done specifically to pay for art and layout.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;870456The purpose of (visual) art in an RPG is to evoke specific thoughts and feelings, and only becomes 'bad' when it evokes the wrong ones. Even pieces which look drawn by a child off their ADD meds are good as long as that's the mental and emotional space you want to put your readers.

Art helps establish what you want someone to think when playing your game and how you want them to feel about it. So if the art brings up feelings of sloth and incompetence simply by how well it's drawn, those feelings will affect how the rest of the game is evaluated, so you'd be better off not having that art at all.

And the advantage art has over writing is that it's absorbed quicker and it's less (though still) dependent on the personal experience of the reader for interpretation. So if you want to clearly and consistently share your experiences with an audience outside your experience, visuals are a more effective channel. After all, a rose by any other name may smell as sweet, but that still doesn't tell anyone exactly what it smells like.

So how important is art in an RPG book? It's critical. And while bad art can be more damaging than no art, no art is still almost as bad. Perhaps that's why so many RPG Kickstarters are done specifically to pay for art and layout.

Pretty much my personal reason for wanting art in my books.  And it matches up with my old anthropology classes and studies about human cultures.  Which is not to say it's fact in any way, just that it's both familiar and I personally believe it.

I think there is another aspect that's being left out, presentation.  Not particularly layout, though that plays a part.  There are some games that evoke a style with either no art, minimal art, or low quality art.  The original Traveller reads like a  technical manual or Top Secret reading like an agent's handbook.  I always thought that is where the 1st edition AD&D DM Manual excelled, it felt and read like a tome of forbidden knowledge compiled by an eccentric sage.  I also thought Burning Wheel pulled this off to an extent.  

I think that is what I believe to be bad art for RPGs.  Art that doesn't feel like it matches what the product is trying to evoke or trumps what the product is trying to evoke.  Artwork has to work in tandem with the writing and layout to have a cohesive presentation.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;870456The purpose of (visual) art in an RPG is to evoke specific thoughts and feelings, and only becomes 'bad' when it evokes the wrong ones. Even pieces which look drawn by a child off their ADD meds are good as long as that's the mental and emotional space you want to put your readers.

Which is why the art by SCAR and J. Cobb in the oWoD books was "good" on that relative standard.

QuoteArt helps establish what you want someone to think when playing your game and how you want them to feel about it. So if the art brings up feelings of sloth and incompetence simply by how well it's drawn, those feelings will affect how the rest of the game is evaluated, so you'd be better off not having that art at all.


And the advantage art has over writing is that it's absorbed quicker and it's less (though still) dependent on the personal experience of the reader for interpretation. So if you want to clearly and consistently share your experiences with an audience outside your experience, visuals are a more effective channel. After all, a rose by any other name may smell as sweet, but that still doesn't tell anyone exactly what it smells like.

So how important is art in an RPG book? It's critical. And while bad art can be more damaging than no art, no art is still almost as bad. Perhaps that's why so many RPG Kickstarters are done specifically to pay for art and layout.

Great point.

JG

Back when there was a local gaming convention, I attended one year when an artist who had worked at Palladium was a fairly regular guest.  He was friends with one of the organizers.  I had the chance to talk to him about working for the game company, and he said that the only people Kevin had less regard for then the staff writers were the artists.  H would not only treat the artists like crap, but also would butcher the art, cut large chunks out of it, lay it out so that it was broken across 2 pages, etc.  He said that the only good thing about working there was that the checks usually cleared.  He said that he liked working at other game companies more, but Palladium usually paid more.

He went on to start his own self-published comic book.  Your typical 90's female flying brick who had gold skin and no clothing.

Quote from: remial;870753Back when there was a local gaming convention, I attended one year when an artist who had worked at Palladium was a fairly regular guest.  He was friends with one of the organizers.  I had the chance to talk to him about working for the game company, and he said that the only people Kevin had less regard for then the staff writers were the artists.  H would not only treat the artists like crap, but also would butcher the art, cut large chunks out of it, lay it out so that it was broken across 2 pages, etc.  He said that the only good thing about working there was that the checks usually cleared.  He said that he liked working at other game companies more, but Palladium usually paid more.

He went on to start his own self-published comic book.  Your typical 90's female flying brick who had gold skin and no clothing.

whats the comic?

However Siembieda may or may not have treated the artists, the art itself is one of the things that utterly MADE Palladium books.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;871499However Siembieda may or may not have treated the artists, the art itself is one of the things that utterly MADE Palladium books.

RPGPundit

This is true.  There was a man who knew the value of art in RPGs.