So I was watching this video

And at about the 44-minute mark, they get into the genesis of roleplaying games as they evolved from wargames. Zak posits that the roleplaying elements evolved from the mechanics, rather than from word of mouth, as John believes.

But Zak puts forward a really interesting idea: that the moment you start seeing the fluff as potential crunch, you bridge the gap between wargame and roleplaying game.

So that notion got my gears turning. And as it always does, my child-like mind drifted to Heroquest.

For the unwary, here is a brief rundown of the best thing about heroquest

Looking into it further, it turns out that heroquest became its own kind-of roleplaying game: Warhammer Quest

Taking a gander at the rules, they have a very "red box" feel to them, which is rad. 32 pages, covering pretty much everything you need for a full campaign.

So... Is this a failed branch of RPG evolution? An RPG that grew from a board game, rather than a war game?

And more broadly, can any game "evolve" into an RPG with a sufficiently detailed setting? Does looking at the Fluff as potential Crunch make any game an RPG?

I watched what I guess is the relevant part of the discussion.  I'm not sure what I think about that.  I can agree with it to a certain extent, but if I think about the reverse, I've played with hundreds of people who played D&D and other RPGs who would never have let the fluff intrude upon the mechanics of the game.  Were they not playing an RPG?

As for the Heroquest video, I'm not entirely sure if he's being amusingly enthusiastic or taking the piss.  Regardless, his words are true.  Heroquest is fucking fantastic.

And Heroquest is an RPG.  You choose a character.  You name it.  You do everything supported in the B/X Basic Set.  The game has a GM.  The GM is encouraged to make their own adventures.  It's just that it's very focused on dungeon adventures.  But there is literally no reason why you can't extrapolate for adventures in other environments.

But yeah, I think many games not regarded as RPGs have RPG potential.  My friends and I used to role play while playing Star Fleet Battles.  We had regular stables of ships with names and histories.  We had named crew on those ships.  We touched upon the same thing with Battletech.  And as I said in a thread several months ago, I see Space Hulk as almost inviting you to roleplay in it with it's named characters and fluff which just works.  I mean, Recon is an RPG,and it's similar in style and theme to a game of Space Hulk.

By the designers own statements. No. HeroQuest is NOT an RPG. That was the whole point of designing the game. He wanted to do a board game that played LIKE an RPG at its most basic elements. The dungencrawler. And gave it a GM because it was easier than designing an AI to play against and furthered that "plays like, but isnt" aspect. Baker used to work at Games Workshop and was able to use those connections to get advice and eventually wrangle the minis and art.

So no. Its not an RPG. Nor is Descent. But it accomplishes near perfectly the goal of giving someone the feel in a board game. Its also got a near perfect balance of complexity and ease for a family game. HeroQuest is pretty much my go-to if I want to explain to someone what the basics of a fantasy RPG usually is. One person runs the monsters and adventure. The rest play the adventurers. Now remove the board (and minis. Though you can use minis) and actually role play, talk, do things that you cant in HQ and the GM isnt running on pure script.

Quote from: Omega;910351By the designers own statements. No. HeroQuest is NOT an RPG. That was the whole point of designing the game. He wanted to do a board game that played LIKE an RPG at its most basic elements. The dungencrawler. And gave it a GM because it was easier than designing an AI to play against and furthered that "plays like, but isnt" aspect. Baker used to work at Games Workshop and was able to use those connections to get advice and eventually wrangle the minis and art.

That is super fascinating, actually. Do you happen to have a link to that? A brief search for him yielded some interesting results. I suddenly want to know about this guy...

So okay, that's a pretty definitive answer to the question of "is this an RPG"? No, it's a board game.

But the question I'm intrigued by is: what elements are missing? What are the bare things that would be added to the mechanics that would MAKE it an RPG? Sufficiently detailed setting? Fluff accessible as "potential crunch"? Or something else?

I thought you meant that other Heroquest game.

Quote from: Bren;910366I thought you meant that other Heroquest game.

Dammit, there are two!?

Neither one is a Role-Playing game.

Quote from: Azraele;910376Dammit, there are two!?

Yep. I actually have a copy of that I found super cheap, but then I started reading and the system it uses to resolve pretty much everything turned me off immediately. I'm sure it works great for some people but I'm just too much of a traditionalist. Incidentally, the name also used to make it incredibly hard to find information on the rpg since most Google searches would just turn up information on the board game.

Didn't Dungeon! do the same thing HeroQuest did years before?

But for me, it was Car Wars that became basically a role-playing game, despite being a board game. We'd play that have and recurring cars and drivers and set up various situations from what we decided our guys would be doing.

Though come to think of it. there's also The Fantasy Trip. Melee and Wizard were originally just gladiatorial combat games. Then they became an RPG with solitaire adventures, and I guess eventually a full fledged rules system.  (And while Fighting Fantasy was never a board game, it was a solitaire adventure game that went group)

Heroquest isn't far from what RPGA / Living Whatever / Pathfinder Society does. Their adventures and grid combat might as well be HeroQuest, except HQ is faster and more fun.

Quote from: JeremyR;910385Didn't Dungeon! do the same thing HeroQuest did years before?

Well that's getting added to the study list...

Quote from: JeremyR;910385But for me, it was Car Wars that became basically a role-playing game, despite being a board game. We'd play that have and recurring cars and drivers and set up various situations from what we decided our guys would be doing.

Hells to the yes! This is what has me so spellbound. This genesis of roleplay elements from a non-RP system!

Quote from: JeremyR;910385Though come to think of it. there's also The Fantasy Trip. Melee and Wizard were originally just gladiatorial combat games. Then they became an RPG with solitaire adventures, and I guess eventually a full fledged rules system.  (And while Fighting Fantasy was never a board game, it was a solitaire adventure game that went group)

Fantasy Trip...?



Huh.


Huh.

Quote from: JeremyR;910385Didn't Dungeon! do the same thing HeroQuest did years before?

But for me, it was Car Wars that became basically a role-playing game, despite being a board game. We'd play that have and recurring cars and drivers and set up various situations from what we decided our guys would be doing.

Though come to think of it. there's also The Fantasy Trip. Melee and Wizard were originally just gladiatorial combat games. Then they became an RPG with solitaire adventures, and I guess eventually a full fledged rules system.  (And while Fighting Fantasy was never a board game, it was a solitaire adventure game that went group)

I remember when my driver's major nemesis challenged him to a Joust.  We went straight at each other at full speed, no weapons, and sideswiped each other.  I made my driving roll, he...invoked the Confetti Rule.  Wasn't the same after that, so I left the Autoduel arenas of the MidWest and headed to Seattle.  My last Car Wars driver was my first Shadowrun character. :cool:

Quote from: CRKrueger;910397I remember when my driver's major nemesis challenged him to a Joust.  We went straight at each other at full speed, no weapons, and sideswiped each other.  I made my driving roll, he...invoked the Confetti Rule.  Wasn't the same after that, so I left the Autoduel arenas of the MidWest and headed to Seattle.  My last Car Wars driver was my first Shadowrun character. :cool:

Why do I see your avatar driving into the sunset in a V8 interceptor with a bolted-on flamethrower...?

But on a less awesome note, this is fascinating. You had a character literally drive out of a non-RP system into one that was.

So... There's an interesting angle. You cared about the character that had arisen from the blend of this game and your imagination. His continuity demanded that he exist in a game, but one in which his character was recognized.

I actually did something like this: My forum name is based on a Warhammer general that gradually grew out of a pile of broken, made-up-by-a-thirteen-year-old stats into what was unmistakably a roleplaying character.

But it seems like both of us had the luxury of pre-existing roleplaying game systems. Much like how warhammer quest was unmistakably informed by D&D; there was a history that allowed us to continue playing beloved characters in a format where that character was central.

My limited knowledge of D&D's evolution from chainmail seems to mirror this progression. Gradually the character emerges from a system, and then it becomes an RPG.

Does that mean that D&D grew in response to this tendency? That actually makes a lot of sense... Hmm.

Quote from: Azraele;910451So... There's an interesting angle. You cared about the character that had arisen from the blend of this game and your imagination. His continuity demanded that he exist in a game, but one in which his character was recognized.

We still tell stories about Tanker Joe, the hero of the worst game of Ogre/GEV I ever played.

Quote from: JeremyR;910385Didn't Dungeon! do the same thing HeroQuest did years before?

I had both, and I think Heroes Quest nailed it in a way that Dungeon didn't. I know we really didn't play dungeon much, but Heroes Quest we played the hell out of.