So I'm getting some nervous reponses from certain players regarding my plan to run Mongoose Traveller. They are tactical combat types, really enjoyed my 4th ed D&D campaign, and they are concerned about what they've seen in the Trav rulebook. Will combat be complex enough? Are there enough ways to mitigate death risks?

What do you veterans think? Would I need to re-engineer anything to satisfy their combat options itch?

One problem is that they don't just want "passive benefits." High stats or powerful weapons aren't enough, they want meaningful combat choices.

Quote from: Vegetable Protein;658913So I'm getting some nervous reponses from certain players regarding my plan to run Mongoose Traveller. They are tactical combat types, really enjoyed my 4th ed D&D campaign, and they are concerned about what they've seen in the Trav rulebook. Will combat be complex enough? Are there enough ways to mitigate death risks?

What do you veterans think? Would I need to re-engineer anything to satisfy their combat options itch?

One problem is that they don't just want "passive benefits." High stats or powerful weapons aren't enough, they want meaningful combat choices.

Well MongTrav combat is meant to emulate how gun combat would go in real life. It is about in the middle in terms of tactical detail and complexity.

Traditionally for Traveller what D&D 4e does with powers and abilities, Traveller does with gear. Like D&D 4e Classic Traveller and Mongoose Traveller both have a straightforward method of resolving combat and the gear is what provides the options. With gear trending to what makes the bigger explosion is best.

Unlike D&D 4e however both Classic Traveller and MongTrav combat resolution is very deadly. At best you can take three shots before you are taken out and one shot faceplants are common. Like in real life the best option is not get shot at in the first place by either starting combat with an overwhelming advantage or use cover to the fullest.

If you want the detailed mechanic for Traveller there are two readily available options. First is to buy Classic Traveller CD-ROM from Far Futures and use the Snapshot rules. Snapshot is a Traveller based wargame of personal combat and easily adaptable to MongTrav. If you use Snapshot you want to use the combat round management aspects and resolve actions according to MongTrav (like firing a gun, reloading, jumping, etc). Snapshot uses a action point system based on the character's characteristic

If you want D&D 4e level detail outside of gear, the only other currently available option is to use GURPS 4e Traveller with books like GURPS Tactical Shooting. It will satisfy any hard core grognard who is concerned with having options and detail. And it is very playable. If you want something more cinematic like D&D 4e. Then the GURPS Action line of PDFs can be thrown in to make a Traveller combat into something out of True Lies, Rambo or Die Hard.

My recommendation is to get Central Supply Catalogue and let the players look at the amount of gear that can be used and just go with MongTrav as is.
Also run some sample combat to get the hang of how the group wants it to flow.

That is a great reply. I'd add some things which worried me from your post.

1: is combat complex enough?
2: is it possible to make it less deadly?

Well combat is complex enough, but it is very deadly.
D&D is not a good simulation of combat, PCs last for a very long time when in a  more realistic game they'd be bleeding out on the floor.
Traveller is quite lenient compared to real life: it's rare for someone in real life to be able to be shot 2 times by a 7.56mm weapon and still be standing but in Traveller you can. But it also simulates the truth of firearms combat, "be seen and die".

So, make sure you offer plenty of cover, interesting terrain and also make them realise the way to survive is to invest in gear, tech, augments, combat drugs and the like.

I'd actually suggest you choose some kit at the right TL and offer them a kit, which you understand the rules for, and then give it a go.

But Traveller is like many non D&D games, combat is to only to be entered into with some conisderable planning and trepidation.

If you want something loose and wooly and cinematic, play a D&D in space clone or Savage Worlds.

Estar beat me to the punch with the Central Supply Catalog, which I'll heartily second.

The one tactical element I found unsatisfying was grenades. They are a little too effective at short ranges. Not sure how I'd go about tweaking that, though.

Quote from: Vegetable Protein;658913So I'm getting some nervous reponses from certain players regarding my plan to run Mongoose Traveller. They are tactical combat types, really enjoyed my 4th ed D&D campaign, and they are concerned about what they've seen in the Trav rulebook. Will combat be complex enough? Are there enough ways to mitigate death risks?

What do you veterans think? Would I need to re-engineer anything to satisfy their combat options itch?

One problem is that they don't just want "passive benefits." High stats or powerful weapons aren't enough, they want meaningful combat choices.

If your Players liked the way combat ran in D&D 4E, then Mongoose Traveller is the wrong game for them. Hell, most Traveller versions will be the wrong game for them, including d20 Traveller.

A common theme of Traveller is that combat is lethal. The rules may be simple, which leaves all the complexity up to the Players and the tactics or plans they come up with. No character has special moves like in 4E giving you a limited selection to choose from.

Want to mitigate death risks? Have a medic handy. Wear body armor. Shoot first. Don't get into combat. Actually, just about anything from Murphy's Laws of Combat is good advice.

If they're big 4e people no version of Traveller will scratch that same itch.  4e is the only Tactical RPG I know of with that level of wargame in it.  You might look at SW, it's more wargamey, since that's where it came from.

If you want to minimize the chances of death, and don't mind doing a little research, go look in to what's being done in trauma treament right now. There's a guy claiming (with living patients to back it up) that cell death doesn't start right away under at least some circumstances (doing CPR apparently interferes with this, so once you start it, you have to keep going until you fix the damage or give up). He's revived people who have been clinically dead, with no CPR or anything, for over an hour, with no brain damage. There's somebody else working on a CPR machine that's no invasive - not a heart/lung machine that requires surgery to hook up, but just device you strap on the patient to keep the CPR going a lot longer than any human being possibly can. They've revived people who were clinically dead as much as four hours or more. Add in cryo preservation (done routinely for a couple of decades now - cool the body to hypothermic levels during surgery, espcially if the heart has to be stopped), and you get a plausible picture:

So long as there's no brain damage, if someond is "killed," their companions have (or there's an automated version of) an emergency medical kit that injects drugs to slow down the cell death even more. This preserves the body long enough to get it to an autodoc that can do emergency surgery to stabilize the patient, or, failing that, put them in crygenic stasis until a real doctor is available.

Depending on just how high tech you want to go, you could also use brain scans and cloning.

Quote from: CRKrueger;658948If they're big 4e people no version of Traveller will scratch that same itch.  4e is the only Tactical RPG I know of with that level of wargame in it.  You might look at SW, it's more wargamey, since that's where it came from.

Well if he wants to put to work into it a referee can use the Hero System. I recommend 5th edition Star Hero and 5th Edition Hero System. I would say it better than D&D 4e for making a custom setup. There was even a Hero System Traveller made although it is out of print now.

6th editions jettisons the grid so I wouldn't use that for the basis of 4e like Space game.

Thank you for all of your excellent and extensive advice guys. I'll look into it.



As for the choice of system, I don't really want to move away from Traveller, as I was sort of digging the idea of playing such a legendary game. But then again, I'm thinking of such extensive modifications and stuff like this that makes me wonder if I'd really be playing Traveller at all. I mean, ditch the third imperium, ditch the stock aliens, massively alter the careers, crunch up combat... maybe I'm missing the point.

Should I just suck it up and try to play it straight? Make a harder pitch for that to the players?

(Also, does it bug anyone else as much as me that the Mongoose books are full of ridiculous cheesecake art and all the multiplication symbols are missing from the calculations? I'm kind of embarrassed to hand that thing out.)

Maybe just fiddle with the numbers, so they can survive a few hits. Other than that, it should be fine. More health, better armor ratings, whatever.

Quote from: Vegetable Protein;659026Thank you for all of your excellent and extensive advice guys. I'll look into it.



As for the choice of system, I don't really want to move away from Traveller, as I was sort of digging the idea of playing such a legendary game. But then again, I'm thinking of such extensive modifications and stuff like this that makes me wonder if I'd really be playing Traveller at all. I mean, ditch the third imperium, ditch the stock aliens, massively alter the careers, crunch up combat... maybe I'm missing the point.

Should I just suck it up and try to play it straight? Make a harder pitch for that to the players?

(Also, does it bug anyone else as much as me that the Mongoose books are full of ridiculous cheesecake art and all the multiplication symbols are missing from the calculations? I'm kind of embarrassed to hand that thing out.)

Don't let game's fame fool you (though I must get my maws on Traveller sometime - I have some PDFs of it, just no time to read it). Reputation does not account for taste, and it cuts both ways - I personally can't stand AW, despite it's reputation as a "go to game" for many. Though I suspect if you give Traveller a chance, you may like it. You need to put yourself in a completely different mindset than 4e though - both you and players.

As for the tactical combat, it's different kind of tactics. Less LoL/DotA/WoW with "what skill should I use if enemy is using Turbojumping and I'm armed with Axe of cleaving", and more about covering fire, taking cover, taking cover, taking cover (it really is something very important), pinning, manoeuvring, and perhaps most importantly - know when to just tail it and perhaps return later, better prepared.

Quote from: estar;658916Also run some sample combat to get the hang of how the group wants it to flow.

Very important note. I always start a new system with a "combat breaking in" session prior to it, so both I and players get a hang of it.

Quote from: Vegetable Protein;658913So I'm getting some nervous reponses from certain players regarding my plan to run Mongoose Traveller. They are tactical combat types, really enjoyed my 4th ed D&D campaign, and they are concerned about what they've seen in the Trav rulebook. Will combat be complex enough? Are there enough ways to mitigate death risks?

What do you veterans think? Would I need to re-engineer anything to satisfy their combat options itch?

One problem is that they don't just want "passive benefits." High stats or powerful weapons aren't enough, they want meaningful combat choices.

In general, if they love D&D4, they will hate Mongoose Traveller.  More specifically, will your players be ok with characters already developed and there is no leveling for them?  And will they be ok with "one shot, one kill" combat, rather than a video game with hit points?

Quote from: Vegetable Protein;659026Should I just suck it up and try to play it straight? Make a harder pitch for that to the players?

Yes, definitely.

Quote from: Vegetable Protein;659026(Also, does it bug anyone else as much as me that the Mongoose books are full of ridiculous cheesecake art and all the multiplication symbols are missing from the calculations? I'm kind of embarrassed to hand that thing out.)

The cheesecake art does not bother me.
The lack of certain equations and formulae does, however.

The only scifi RPG that gives me the tactical battle of 4e is the new Gamma World based on the 4e engine.

There was some 4e based science fiction game I saw on DriveThru that looked interesting, but I never tried it. Can't remember the name at the moment, but they were using the 4e system in spaaaace.

Tell them it's old skool and watch them die?
Nah, that's no fun.

I'd really make it clear that it's tactically sound, but real. D&D 4e isn't.

Then Savage it!