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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Azraele on January 22, 2018, 12:43:18 AM

Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Azraele on January 22, 2018, 12:43:18 AM
So I'm running my Carcosa campaign and one of the two thieves pleases a death god and is granted a wight servant as reward. Y'know, regular stuff.

He sends the thing into a family shop and has it kill the family that runs the place. Now, he has six wights. And a shop.

What prevents him from bringing about the end of the world, exactly?

The only thing that can harm wights is magic. So unlike vampires, they're cool with light and crosses and fire and garlic. They can continue to produce one another indefinitely. The wights created are under the control of their creator, making them perfect servants. This is a recipe for an unstoppable zombie apocalypse, except they're wights.

I'm in a bind here. I don't want this to eat my campaign. Thoughts?
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Kyle Aaron on January 22, 2018, 01:13:41 AM
Answer us why wights haven't taken over the world already? I mean long before this doofus came along.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Azraele on January 22, 2018, 01:26:32 AM
I never gave it any thought? I didn't design wights, I'm just using a retorclone where they exist. The game doesn't address it
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Kyle Aaron on January 22, 2018, 02:21:55 AM
Then give it thought. Given what you've said, the existence of even one wight means there will be two, if there are two there are four, and so on. In 20 generations there are over a million of them.

Do they require "food", even if souls? If so, how long without feeding before they become weakened and now vulnerable to this or that? Does daylight hurt them? Etc. Remember that whatever's written in the book is just a guideline, I mean if you want an ogre cleric or a bullette the size of a fox or wights that can't cross running water or whatever, you can do it.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Azraele on January 22, 2018, 03:17:06 AM
It's notable that this is literally the first instance of a rule being a danger to the integrity of a campaign that I've encountered since adopting this system (ACKS if anybody cares)

I hate to add something to the game after its been introduced, so I'm reluctant (not unwilling, just unhappy about) adding vulnerabilities, restrictions etc. We've done such a stellar job of running by the book, it irks me to tweak a game in motion.

The problem, for me, isn't "I can't think of restrictions for the undead". Yeah I don't have a lack of imagination; that's not the issue

The issue is, as written, wights should rule the fucking world. And that's weird, because no other monster does this.

Vampires fry in sunlight, a thing that literally floods every exposed surface of the world half of all time. Raising a single skeleton is a level 5 spell, one of the most powerful in the game. Zombies don't transmit their curse via killing their enemies.

Wights have no weaknesses save magic, which is rare and costly. They reproduce by conquest with a lag time of days to rise, rather than the 10-20 years human beings need to raise a new generation of soldiers. And every wight has this ability.

To the best of my knowledge these things have existed in every edition of D&D. There's no way that Gygax's players didn't see this threat; there's a line in my AD&D monster manual about the new wights being "half strength", though as typical with that tome I'm not clear on what that's referencing (hit dice? Strength score?)

Where were the armies of wights swarming greyhawk, or flooding eberron, or hell, ravenloft?

Is it just that wights were never militarized? That can't be right; just try and tell me this guy isn't in some army of the dead:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2165[/ATTACH]

I'm experiencing my first bout of cognitive dissonance with OSR mechanics. Did my players seriously find out something that nobody else has dealt with?


EDIT: Hey this is unrelated, but you have the exact same name as my brother. Isn't that weird?
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: S'mon on January 22, 2018, 04:38:29 AM
All these Spawning undead need implied restrictions not spelled out in the book, if you want to explain why they don't rule. (Incorporeal undead can hide from sunlight during the day)

Wights are normally bound to their barrow cairn or similar (they're based on the barrow wight in Fellowship of the Ring, except those were non-spawning evil spirits infesting the 'wights' - bodies - of Men).
I would have your wight family bound to their shop. I have mobile wight soldiers IMC, eg Cormarrin's Three Hundred, but they are bound to their unit and can't spawn additional unit members by killing people.

In pre-3e D&D Clerics of moderate level can destroy any number of this sort of undead; if Carcosa nerfed this but kept D&D undead stats then you have a problem.

AIR wights in BX are 'helpless in sunlight'; does Carcosa/ACKS not have this?
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Kyle Aaron on January 22, 2018, 05:10:03 AM
AD&D1e wights are affected not only by magical weapons, but by silver weapons and holy water. So a bunch of peasants could pelt them with silver pennies from slings and ruin their day. Clerics can turn them, with even a 1st level cleric being able to do so on a roll of 20 on a d20. A sensible DM would give a bonus to turn the "half-strength" (this will mean half hit dice) wights.

The half-strength wights are under the command of the wight who created them, not some PC; though in principle a lawful evil cleric who "turns" them would be able to control them. But this control is not indefinite, it lasts for 24-save required (eg 20 for the 1st level cleric vs a wight) hours, and after that must be renewed; even an automatic "T" result has to be renewed every 6 days. Any "hostile acts" remove the control, and the examples given are entering into areas the undead was ordered to guard, taking its personal treasures, and so on. As S'mon said, the implication is that most undead - not merely wights - are more or less bound to their lair, not wandering the lands like tinkers.

Now, your game may do these things differently, but it's not true that wights have been as you describe in every version of D&D. It's quite possible the writers just fucked up. If you write a whole game, there'll be some stuff that's never looked at much even with extensive playtesting.

Sounds like Carcosa is about teh evi1 play. Which usually turns out retarded.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Omega on January 22, 2018, 08:10:51 AM
Jesus wept not this brain stunted argument AGAIN?

I believe a clarification in Dragon stated the lesser ones didnt have the same ability to spread. Also some are ties to their tombs or resting places and have no interest or ability to venture out unless really annoyed.

In AD&D the wight can only turn humans and those turned are half strength wights with no mention that they can turn others as well. They average a little over 20hp. About 4-5 vials of holy water will kill one. As will a Raise Dead spell and of course they are turnable. In BX though it was little different with some undead turning anyone they killed into the same type a day later. But they are not inherintly evil and could just as easily be friendly as they might be hostile.

At least in AD&D who is to say they dont run amok? The place is littered with ruins of towns and castles. Take a guess how some of those might have gotten that way. But eventually they either depopulate the area or are put down or at least contained. (or even pulled into the demiplane of Dread in 2e)
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Willie the Duck on January 22, 2018, 09:37:00 AM
Quote from: S'mon;1021108
All these Spawning undead need implied restrictions not spelled out in the book, if you want to explain why they don't rule. (Incorporeal undead can hide from sunlight during the day)

Same with demons who can summon other demons.
The underlying principle I always use is that the monsters are written in the monster manual with defined mechanical abilities which suit their purpose as opponents for PCs going into the dungeons to stomp them and take their loot. Where those abilities create illogical situations (or 'so why hasn't the world ended?' situations), I always say 'the DM has to decide.'

It's really no different than the fact that D&D economies rarely make sense, and create illogical situations like 10' ladders which cost less than the 2 10' poles that would go into their construction or the peasants who don't earn enough to feed themselves. The world is PC-facing, and where it isn't, the DM needs to come up with the answers.

Quote from: Omega;1021127
Jesus wept not this brain stunted argument AGAIN?

Other than the fact that you've seen this topic repeatedly, what exactly makes this issue 'brain stunted?' If there was a clarification in Dragon (which by now most players would not have seen), then clearly there is/was and problem/concern with the original rules.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Baron Opal on January 22, 2018, 10:44:03 AM
My wights shun sunlight and seek to be near their burial mounds. Really it's their grave goods, so you might see them out and about if their stuff gets stolen. Wights that roam about without any treasure do so sometimes because someone used speak with dead too many times, and the corpse just decided to stay awake.

So why haven't wights taken over the world? Simply, they don't want to. They just want to be left alone to count their coins until they rot away. (Which takes a little longer.) I also tend to have creatures slain by wights turn into shadows, unless they had some profound greed or envy in life to keep their bodies moving.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Bejazeus on January 22, 2018, 11:52:28 AM
Without retconning what you've already introduced you could always create an unforeseen limitation to your players control over the wights, which could also introduce some new story threads.  Maybe the wight grows more powerful the more people it turns, eventually breaking free of control and taking its army with it.  This could initially be shown as slight disobedience worsening over time.
Maybe the control the player has over the created wights grows weaker the more are created, until soon the players have an uncontrolled wight apocalypse on their hands which they will have to deal with, providing more adventure opportunities.
Or a final possibility could be that wights are intrinsically territorial and hostile to each other when their numbers exceed a certain point, this would also explain why "natural" wights have never destroyed the world, falling to infighting and self correcting the problem.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Tulpa Girl on January 22, 2018, 12:14:18 PM
Quote from: Azraele;1021078
Now, he has six wights.

Not familiar with Carcosa, but is there any reason why he would automatically have control over any wights that 'his' wight created?  Unless it's specifically stated to be the case, I wouldn't take that as a given.

As for the larger question, I have to agree with S'mon's take on it.  Wights are *extremely* territorial, and don't really give a shit about anything that doesn't enter their turf.  If they have any free will, it's extremely limited and mono-focused.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Dumarest on January 22, 2018, 12:23:01 PM
Quote from: Azraele;1021078
The only thing that can harm wights is magic.


Didn't you bury your own answer in your question?
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Doom on January 22, 2018, 12:30:54 PM
You rather messed up in line 1: wight as personal slave.

It's more of a servant, at best, and probably hates its service, hates its master (wights hate all life, after all). The Death God says it must obey, but says nothing of the wights under its control. So it tells the wights under its control: "Kill my master and ignore all further instructions."

In general, wights don't play well with others, only serving powerful masters in rare occasions (and those masters are nonliving, nonwights). So they don't form armies, kingdoms, or whatnot. They generally find a place away from sunlight (they don't like it), away from life (don't like that either), away from other wights (don't like those)...and sit in darkness for all eternity if left alone. They'll tolerate some other undead, namely skeletons and zombies, provided they don't do much.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Imaginos on January 22, 2018, 01:00:03 PM
Not familiar with Carcosa, but from ACKS rule book.  Wights can be turned by 1st level clerics.  9th level automatically destroys them.  Wights may be harmed by "magical weapons, spells, and weapons made of silver."  That is from the ACKS core rulebook.

The PCs are not the ONLY classed characters that are leveling is a base assumption here.  If wights start appearing, adventurer's will be hired to take care of them.  Or the "church" will send a force of clerics and warriors to combat them.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Kyle Aaron on January 22, 2018, 05:01:22 PM
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1021159
Other than the fact that you've seen this topic repeatedly, what exactly makes this issue 'brain stunted?' If there was a clarification in Dragon (which by now most players would not have seen), then clearly there is/was and problem/concern with the original rules.
I recall questions in the letters page where one guy was asking "how much does a legless dwarf weigh, and can he sit in a human fighter's backpack and fight from it?" and "how much does a wingless draconian weigh, and can he be flung from a trebuchet?"

Do you think those questions show that there was a problem or concern with the original rules? Should this be covered in any rule set? Or do some DMs just run fucking weird campaigns and not know how to say, "no, don't be stupid" to their players?
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: estar on January 22, 2018, 05:26:50 PM
So ACKS Wights read

Quote
Wights are undead creatures who were formerly humans or demi-humans in life. A wight's appearance is a weird and twisted reflection of the form it had in life. Wights attack by touching a victim and energy draining one level from the victim. Any human or demi-human slain by a wight becomes a wight in 1d4 days. Wights may only be harmed by magical weapons, spells, and weapons made of silver. Like other undead, they are immune to the effects of sleep, charm, and hold spells.


First two RAW answers.
1) Nowhere it says that wights created by wights are under the control of their creator. So the first wights created by the PC's pet wight will be uncontrolled gunning for the nearest warm body (the PCs likely).

2) Wights are #4 on the Turn table. With Automatic turning at 6th level and destruction at 9th. While 6th level characters and 9th level character are not going to be common. It the insta-kill means that any region suffering from a wight infestation is going to get quickly wiped out once the name level heroes get wind of it. And the lower levels have more than a fair chance of containing the outbreak once it starts. Even a 1st level cleric has a 10% chance of repelling a wight.

Now for the setting dependent reason.

1) Since we are talking Carcosa, it likely that good clerics are few and far between. But it is Carcosa and the simplest reason is that the population density isn't there. Wights pop up, run rampant, wipe out the village and promptly plow into the nastiness that inhabits the Carcosa wilderness.

2) Carcosa has competing evil powers. Not all of them want to see a wight fueled end of the world. More so they may see a wight infestation as an opportunity to gain minions by using magic to seize control of the undead.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: darthfozzywig on January 22, 2018, 06:45:30 PM
Quote from: S'mon;1021108

Wights are normally bound to their barrow cairn or similar (they're based on the barrow wight in Fellowship of the Ring, except those were non-spawning evil spirits infesting the 'wights' - bodies - of Men).
I would have your wight family bound to their shop. I have mobile wight soldiers IMC, eg Cormarrin's Three Hundred, but they are bound to their unit and can't spawn additional unit members by killing people.


We have a winner!
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Krimson on January 22, 2018, 07:22:50 PM
I'd take the meta route and assume if a wight Apocalypse could happen, then why hasn't it already happened a long time ago, and then go from there. I'd go on but some of the previous posts sum it up better.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on January 22, 2018, 07:26:06 PM
No idea, but I'm honestly less afraid of some Wight Power group taking over than I am of Black Arts Matter or By Any Magic Necessary. Antifay is pretty bad too, but nobody likes Faeries.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Just Another Snake Cult on January 22, 2018, 07:31:08 PM
The Powers That Be tolerate a scummy class of itinerant murder-hobos that often kill monsters for pay (Or, even better for the taxpayers, just for the monster's treasure). Conveniently, many of these ruffians are religious fanatics of some type or another, or at least consort with them. Conveniently, magical weapons often have a way of making it in to their hands. They keep the monster population in check, and society long ago decided that was worth the occasional raped barmaid, clumsy coup attempt, or eldritch horror accidentally unleashed from an ancient subterranean prison.  

The Seven Swords of Sarnath and their "Pet" hook horror have just pulled up in town in their armored coach and accepted an offer to kill wights for 100 SP a head. Infamous alcoholics led by a Paladin of a dead god and with two named magic swords, three wands, and an AK-47 with half a clip (Don't ask) between them, they don't play well with others, especially other "Crawlers". Lock up the booze and send your daughters out of town. Things could get ugly fast.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Azraele on January 22, 2018, 07:42:49 PM
This thread just keeps churning up great ideas.

I think a combination of "not under the control of the lead wight" and "territorially haunt their former shop" should suffice to nip the apocalypse in the bud. It's a good combination of RAW and a reasonable extrapolation of behavior, without adding anything. That is indeed the thread winner.

I love the idea of another group of wildly irresponsible adventurers showing up; I can't believe I didn't think about it, but I love it.

Don't let me wet the thread's fire though. Just know that you all have helped immensely. Thanks!
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Headless on January 22, 2018, 07:52:09 PM
There is a GIANT WALL OF ICE gaurded by exiled thieves, rapist, murderers & disgraced knights guarding the realms of men which wrights can not pass.


Also the wright was a gift for pleasing a death god.  Stealing all the dead and acting like a tiny undead Napoleon might not please the Death god.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 22, 2018, 08:01:06 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1021229
I recall questions in the letters page where one guy was asking "how much does a legless dwarf weigh, and can he sit in a human fighter's backpack and fight from it?" and "how much does a wingless draconian weigh, and can he be flung from a trebuchet?"

Do you think those questions show that there was a problem or concern with the original rules? Should this be covered in any rule set? Or do some DMs just run fucking weird campaigns and not know how to say, "no, don't be stupid" to their players?

Now you know why some of us old bastards are so godsdamned cranky.

"How fucking stupid can players BE?" is a well with no bottom.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Bren on January 22, 2018, 08:04:59 PM
While I knew some players who played D&D while stoned or high I never realized they also wrote letters to The Dragon.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Omega on January 22, 2018, 08:26:37 PM
Right. In BX and ACKS undead created by undead like the Wight, Wraith, and Spectre come back as a normal one rather than a half strength one like in AD&D. The Wight is the exception in that the new wights are not under its control. In fact you could have a situation where the new wights attack the one that created them to protect others.

Now say you had a Spectre instead. The PC or even an NPC gains control over it and orders it to make more spectres. The minute the Spectre has enough minions its going to order THEM to off the controller. Watch the movie Demolition Man. :cool: And again these minions may not want to harm anyone as in BX and ACKS Chaotic does not = Evil. Though since this is Carcosa we are talking about... ahem. But this even paves the way for why the creature turns on the controller. They might not be evil and thus resent being controlled.

And as noted they are not exactly super tough once you have something that can harm them. 4-5 vials of holy water or one fighter with a silver or magic sword. And PCs can buy silvered weapons at chargen even in ACKS. Silver tipped arrows are just 5gp each. It will take on average 7-8 arrows or stabs with a silvered dagger. But PCs and NPCs can be armed right out the gate. And of course even 1st level clerics have a 10 percent chance to turn them. By level 3 the cleric has a 55 percent chance to turn a wight. Automatic at level 7. Then theres the fact the wights are just 3++ HD creatures in ACKS. Meaning that against for example a person in chainmail, or scale+shield, the wight has only a 50 percent chance of landing a blow. And vulnerability to some spells.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Dave 2 on January 22, 2018, 09:07:57 PM
Best answers already taken, but here's another for reference.

Crusade.  Given that wights manifestly haven't taken over the world yet, NPCs have clearly figured out what's up and how to stop it.  First hint of a wight-bomb inside settled lands gets absolutely swarmed by every cleric, paladin, knight, and lord who can reach.  And not just the good guys, this is all the neutrals and a lot of the human bad guys, who like having a place to live.  Once the wights are down, and auguries cast to be sure, anyone who can be determined to have tried to weaponise wights gets the same treatment.  (This may be less use in Carcosa than some more vanilla D&D worlds.)

I'd also keep an eye on that wight servant.  In ACKS I'd treat it as a henchman and make loyalty rolls when appropriate, even if starting at a bonus for divine orders.  But at the very least, it's service would depend on keeping that death god happy going forward.  Could be tricky.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: cranebump on January 22, 2018, 09:59:07 PM
If there are wights, there are wight hunters, surely.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 23, 2018, 12:36:08 AM
Quote from: Azraele;1021078
So I'm running my Carcosa campaign and one of the two thieves pleases a death god and is granted a wight servant as reward. Y'know, regular stuff.

He sends the thing into a family shop and has it kill the family that runs the place. Now, he has six wights. And a shop.

What prevents him from bringing about the end of the world, exactly?

The only thing that can harm wights is magic. So unlike vampires, they're cool with light and crosses and fire and garlic. They can continue to produce one another indefinitely. The wights created are under the control of their creator, making them perfect servants. This is a recipe for an unstoppable zombie apocalypse, except they're wights.

I'm in a bind here. I don't want this to eat my campaign. Thoughts?


Sounds like a job for Solomon Kane.

(https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/11/111114/2147922-p1solomonkane.jpg)
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: baran_i_kanu on January 23, 2018, 02:11:45 AM
Quote from: Doom;1021200
You rather messed up in line 1: wight as personal slave.

It's more of a servant, at best, and probably hates its service, hates its master (wights hate all life, after all). The Death God says it must obey, but says nothing of the wights under its control. So it tells the wights under its control: "Kill my master and ignore all further instructions."

In general, wights don't play well with others, only serving powerful masters in rare occasions (and those masters are nonliving, nonwights). So they don't form armies, kingdoms, or whatnot. They generally find a place away from sunlight (they don't like it), away from life (don't like that either), away from other wights (don't like those)...and sit in darkness for all eternity if left alone. They'll tolerate some other undead, namely skeletons and zombies, provided they don't do much.


What Doom said.
Territorial and perhaps filled with self-loathing and surely seething with chaotic hatred would lead to small groups. Perhaps they're just smart enough to avoid creating large groups to stay in the shadows and avoid catching too much attention to themselves leading to extermination.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: soltakss on January 23, 2018, 06:06:08 AM
Quote from: cranebump;1021273
If there are wights, there are wight hunters, surely.

Haven't a clue about D&D wights, but if they are only harmed by magic or magical weapons, I would expect groups of wight-hunters aremed with magic and magical weapons to descend on anywhere even hinting at a wight infection.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 23, 2018, 12:02:49 PM
The rules do not say the wights are under the command of the wight that created them.

So.

The PC waits for the new wights to arise, whereupon they turn on him and kill him and turn him into a wight, and then the wights scatter to the ends of the earth.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: CausticJedi on January 23, 2018, 02:32:24 PM
I really like all of these suggestions that are supported by the game logic and/or RAW.  I don't play OSR-type games at all so it's new to me and interesting to read.  

But what if they weren't?  Wouldn't a simple talk OOC do a better job overall of solving the problem?  Saying something like, "hey, you know, I don't feel comfortable with how this is heading 'cause I feel it would get out of control and frankly spoil my fun as GM.  Could you reassure me you'll not do that?"  

I mention this because I've been griefed before though with different games and often it was done following the RAW so couldn't be solved by referring to the rules.  

Anyway just my 2¢.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Bren on January 23, 2018, 03:04:28 PM
Quote from: cranebump;1021273
If there are wights, there are wight hunters, surely.
They would be Great Wight Hunters.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Azraele on January 23, 2018, 03:07:06 PM
Quote from: CausticJedi;1021353
I really like all of these suggestions that are supported by the game logic and/or RAW.  I don't play OSR-type games at all so it's new to me and interesting to read.  

But what if they weren't?  Wouldn't a simple talk OOC do a better job overall of solving the problem?  Saying something like, "hey, you know, I don't feel comfortable with how this is heading 'cause I feel it would get out of control and frankly spoil my fun as GM.  Could you reassure me you'll not do that?"  

I mention this because I've been griefed before though with different games and often it was done following the RAW so couldn't be solved by referring to the rules.  

Anyway just my 2¢.

Well of course. Part of my dilemma is that the social contract of my game is that the gameworld is an organic outgrowth of the rules. As a matter of fact, that's why ACKS is currently my favorite system; it takes great pains to justify the zany OSR-world with a workable internal logic.

For my table, having this dialogue would be injurious to the fun we're all enjoying. It remains an option of last resort, just like altering the rules is an option.

Within the comfort and fun level of my table, many of the rulings described in this thread are within our acceptable parameters without needing to have this conversation. This makes them preferable options, though not strictly "better" ones.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Azraele on January 23, 2018, 03:10:48 PM
Quote from: Bren;1021360
They would be Great Wight Hunters.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2169[/ATTACH]

Problem solved
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: CausticJedi on January 23, 2018, 03:12:56 PM
Quote from: Azraele;1021361
Well of course. Part of my dilemma is that the social contract of my game is that the gameworld is an organic outgrowth of the rules. As a matter of fact, that's why ACKS is currently my favorite system; it takes great pains to justify the zany OSR-world with a workable internal logic.

For my table, having this dialogue would be injurious to the fun we're all enjoying. It remains an option of last resort, just like altering the rules is an option.

Within the comfort and fun level of my table, many of the rulings described in this thread are within our acceptable parameters without needing to have this conversation. This makes them preferable options, though not strictly "better" ones.

That's cool.  I wasn't sure because in my experience, the majority of time, communication doesn't really happen at the table or even away from.  As I said, all the in-game solutions are pretty interesting to read about and I'm glad you're able to find in-world options for a solution that everyone is happy with.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Azraele on January 23, 2018, 03:16:08 PM
Quote from: CausticJedi;1021365
That's cool.  I wasn't sure because in my experience, the majority of time, communication doesn't really happen at the table or even away from.  As I said, all the in-game solutions are pretty interesting to read about and I'm glad you're able to find in-world options for a solution that everyone is happy with.

Man, that sucks. My games always have a lot of chatter (and cheetos), so communication is pretty good. I'd be concerned if someone was sitting around my table quietly except when they did things in-game. Come on out of your shell, friend: there are cheetos here.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: estar on January 23, 2018, 03:16:50 PM
Quote from: CausticJedi;1021353
I really like all of these suggestions that are supported by the game logic and/or RAW.  I don't play OSR-type games at all so it's new to me and interesting to read.  

But what if they weren't?  Wouldn't a simple talk OOC do a better job overall of solving the problem?  Saying something like, "hey, you know, I don't feel comfortable with how this is heading 'cause I feel it would get out of control and frankly spoil my fun as GM.  Could you reassure me you'll not do that?"  

I mention this because I've been griefed before though with different games and often it was done following the RAW so couldn't be solved by referring to the rules.

First off, yes anything can be handled by the referee sitting down with the group and hashing things out. But the players PoV will be generally as follows

Quote
So you started a campaign saying you use a RPG RAW and now you don't want to use RAW because you don't like the result? I figured out a clever way of obtaining powers and you deny it to me? Why the hell do you had the death god give me the wight in the first place?

A player will likely be polite about it but I rarely seen a player like it.

Look I get it, but players really don't like referees changing rules midstream. It one of the few ways viewed as cheating on the referee part. Yes I realize that this seemingly contradicts the OSR mantra, your campaign, your rules, your rulings. The difference is that in this case a previous ruling is being contradicted for no reason other than the referee doesn't like the result.

There are plenty of time over the past decades where I didn't like the result of how the rule played but unless it was totally nonsensical, I wait until the next campaign to fix it. I have several things I don't like about how the rules work for my current Thursday campaign that I will be fixing for the next Majestic Wilderlands campaign. Most of them it how fast the PC level in relation to in-game time (not number of sessions played). But for now I will just live with the hand I was dealt.

My advice for Azraele is that if he didn't misread the rules for wights then find a way to make the wight apocalypse interesting. The best way to do think of how it would play out with him standing their watching. Focus on the people (NPCs) involved. Use more of his limited verbal bandwidth and session time to push those character to the forefront. Describe how not only the soldier and men of the town are getting hammered but women and children. You don't have to get all X rated but enough of the a dose may make the players think "Holy shit what I am doing?".

Also this pattern of thought will lead to ideas on how the inhabitants of the setting would handle the villain PCs. Don't latch on the first possibility but thing through the alternative and pick the one that most interesting.

If the other PCs start complaining remind them that they are their as their character. That they have agency, that one of their own now has turned Dark Lord. And if they have a problem with that well... it time to get to work. If they are onboard with helping out the PC Dark Lord, then again figure out how to make it an interesting and challenging experience.

Then next time tell your group fuck the rules. This is my setting, this is how it works and if RAW supports that we are using it, if not it not happening.Unless otherwise stated assume that it works like the High Middle Ages in Western Europe (or the closest historical equivalent).
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: estar on January 23, 2018, 03:43:57 PM
Quote from: Azraele;1021361
Well of course. Part of my dilemma is that the social contract of my game is that the gameworld is an organic outgrowth of the rules. As a matter of fact, that's why ACKS is currently my favorite system; it takes great pains to justify the zany OSR-world with a workable internal logic.

Sorry man, but fuck the rules even if it is the otherwise excellent ACKS. What you said is ass backwards. Why? Because it is impossible for any human written set of RPG rules to encompasses the possibilities inherent in any setting. That why Tabletop RPGs have human referees in the first place.

Define the setting first and then the rules you are going to use. Now the virtue of ACKS is as you noted that the authors did a excellent job of crunching a plausible set of numbers to underpin a D&D style fantasy medieval setting. But realize in the end it all ties back to that setting. As the referee you have final say over what the setting is or isn't. And even for all the work put into ACKS it is still incomplete even for a generic setting.

For example to use a wight . It is creature that is undead and was once a human or demi-human. That its appearance is a warped and twisted version of how it originally looked. That it sucks the life force out of those who it touch and if it goes on long enough the victim will die and rise up as another wight within the week. That they are not effected by sleep, charm, or hold magic. And only be harmed by spells, magic weapons, or silver.

Now what it doesn't say anything about the motivations or purpose of wights. We do have a section on undead. In it we learn that they are horrors, that they are considered evil. If you read anything about fantasy or history, you will now that traditionally wights are associated with malignant undead inhabiting tombs most famously found in the Lord of the Rings when Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin ran afoul of one on the Barrow-downs.

Likely the authors of ACKS were aware of the origins of wights which stems from a late 19th century translation of Nordic saga feature Draugr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draugr). That a Draugr is a Nordic undead associated with guarding treasure in a burial mound.

However we have a lot of dials to turn with wights at this point. The only way that they get set is when you define what and how they are in your setting. Hence why it has to be setting before rules.

For my part this is my take on wights in the Majestic Wilderlands.

Quote
WIGHT
Wights are undead animated by the spirits of restless dead determined to protect their graves. Usually it is the spirit of a person whose primary motivation was greed in life. Sometimes individuals who have a powerful sense of duty or honor to his ancestors will rise as a wight.

Most religions incorporate rituals in their burial rites that prevent wights from rising. Although in some cases they are deliberately omitted to provide the grave site with guardians. They appear as gaunt skeletal human dressed in grave robes with their eyes burning with an unholy light.

Wights are unable to travel beyond a mile away from the bounds of their burial site. In the case of barrow mounds this can be an extensive range of several square miles.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 23, 2018, 04:05:22 PM
Quote from: Bren;1021360
They would be Great Wight Hunters.

Seven beers.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Azraele on January 23, 2018, 04:39:59 PM
Quote from: estar;1021373
For example to use a wight . It is creature that is undead and was once a human or demi-human. That its appearance is a warped and twisted version of how it originally looked. That it sucks the life force out of those who it touch and if it goes on long enough the victim will die and rise up as another wight within the week. That they are not effected by sleep, charm, or hold magic. And only be harmed by spells, magic weapons, or silver.

Now what it doesn't say anything about the motivations or purpose of wights. We do have a section on undead. In it we learn that they are horrors, that they are considered evil. If you read anything about fantasy or history, you will now that traditionally wights are associated with malignant undead inhabiting tombs most famously found in the Lord of the Rings when Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin ran afoul of one on the Barrow-downs.


Well said; the parameters of Wights (and just about everything in ACKS, as I've come to discover) provides a fine body, but it relies on a GM to create the soul. I'm comfortable fiddling with those dials you're describing; that's why I'm taking the advice to make the "standard" Wight a territorial, greedy hoarder (ala the lord of the rings barrow wight, which is my favorite depiction of one).

Now, this isn't to say that the party antipaladin can't control a small army of Wights created by the "party Wight", but I consider that clever strategy, not an inherently broken fragment of rules. "Crusade of Wights led by a dark paladin" sounds about right for Carcosa, and is a far cry from "Wights are zombies but invincible to nonmagic", which was the problem with my (incorrect) original reading.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 23, 2018, 05:24:12 PM
This seems like a good place to post this.

``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

UP IN THE AIR, JUNIOR BIRDMEN!

In Volume 1 of Original D&D, Gary wrote that "There is no reason that players cannot be allowed to play as virtually anything, provided they begin relatively weak and work up to the top." I've noted that I played several Balrogs, and way back in the Introduction, I told the story of Sir Fang, the first Vampire player character.

Note, however, that Sir Fang was not the LAST Vampire player character.

One of the gang at the U of Minnesota wanted to play a vampire. This was LONG before vampires were sparkly, and, for that matter, long before they were Brad Pitt. A vampire was Christopher Lee or Bela Lugosi in tuxedo and opera cape, period.

In D&D, if you wanted to play anything, you ALWAYS started low level and worked your way up. D&D undead had a correlation between type and hit dice; a Skeleton was 1 HD, a Zombie 2, etc, up through Ghoul, Wight, Wraith, Mummy, Spectre, Vampire… so our would-be vampire started, of course, as a Skeleton. But at long last he became a vampire, and then, per the rules, proceeded to make a bunch of slaves by "putting the fangs to them." Of course, those killed would rise with 1 HD also… as a Skeleton.

Eventually the vampire got a cohort of slave vampires and spectres following him. Hooray.

Well, one dark moonlit night our PC and his henchpires were out travelling somewhere and had a random encounter… another band of vampires. PC decides he's going to eliminate the lead vampire of the other gang and take them all over; the NPC vampire had much the same idea. And the fight was on.

Vampire attacks Spectre. Vampire hits; Spectre is drained 2 levels; Spectre becomes a Wraith.

Wraith attacks a different enemy, a Spectre, because it's easier to hit, and hits. But wraiths drain one level, not two, so the enemy Spectre is drained one level… and turns into a mummy.

Oh, by the way… both vampire gangs had been flying, and were fighting at an approximate altitude of 1000 feet above the ground. And mummies are notable for their aerodynamics – "notable" in the sense of, "They fly about as well as a dessicated human corpse that's had its internal organs pulled out and then been wrapped in bandages."

And the hapless mummy plummets earthward, flapping its arms madly.

I'm sure you can see where this is heading. The aerial duel continued in something rather like "Night of the Living Dead" meets "Blue Max," and as the combatants were drained levels, they would eventually hit a non-flying form… zombie, ghoul, wight, or mummy… and go hurtling towards the ground in the grip of that puissant incantation, "9.8 meters per second squared".

I picture the peasants below, huddling in their wretched huts and praying as hard as they can as various half-decomposed bodies fall out of the sky to land with meaty thumps. On the other hand, all that organic material would be great fertilizer.

I've never needed rules for "comic relief" in D&D. Wait patiently and the players will provide it in abundance.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Bren on January 23, 2018, 06:31:56 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1021380
Seven beers.
I thought you liked puns.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Elfdart on January 23, 2018, 08:31:59 PM
Wights are affected by fire, and even the lowliest humans have that weapon at their disposal. They also avoid bright lights as well as sunlight, so one way communities might keep them under control is with picks and shovels: digging up the mounds, tombs and catacombs where the wights live and giving them nowhere to hide from the sun.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: cranebump on January 23, 2018, 09:02:51 PM
Quote from: Bren;1021360
They would be Great Wight Hunters.


Heh, heh. I stand corrected.:-)
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Patrick on January 23, 2018, 09:13:21 PM
Quote from: anon adderlan;1021245
no idea, but i'm honestly less afraid of some wight power group taking over than i am of black arts matter or by any magic necessary. Antifay is pretty bad too, but nobody likes faeries.


flawless victory
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 23, 2018, 11:10:04 PM
Quote from: Bren;1021408
I thought you liked puns.

The correct response to a good pun is pain.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Opaopajr on January 24, 2018, 03:05:59 AM
Slaves rebel. Servants disobey and have personal boundaries. Even hive drones can have some individuality. Only mindless drones carry out all commands "perfectly," and even automata can have (and develop) programming bugs. Yet all are technically "under the control" of another.

The Wight is not a Mindless Drone. The other wights are made by the previous wight. They are under Its control.

Your player is empowering his own servant with its own servants. Which in turn sows the seed for rebellion. He will likely in the future lose his head to those "under his control."

And the God of Death will continue to remain pleased.

Problem solved. No change to RAW. Just read between the lines. ;)

Players presume a level of perfect servitude that doesn't even exist with our own machines in this reality. Disabuse them of that stupidity.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Spinachcat on January 24, 2018, 03:52:52 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1021396
I picture the peasants below, huddling in their wretched huts and praying as hard as they can as various half-decomposed bodies fall out of the sky to land with meaty thumps.


Book. Book. Book. I want your damn book!!

That's a great story. Thanks as always.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Bren on January 24, 2018, 02:16:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1021454
The correct response to a good pun is pain.
But properly the pain is yours, not the punster's. :p
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Omega on January 25, 2018, 10:30:16 PM
Quote from: Bren;1021575
But properly the pain is yours, not the punster's. :p

Two wights dont make a wong.

The title of this thread should have been "Wight makes Wight"
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 26, 2018, 12:13:18 AM
Quote from: Bren;1021575
But properly the pain is yours, not the punster's. :p

Eight
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Bren on January 26, 2018, 12:36:33 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1021965
Eight
GaryCon is looking better and better. :cool: But before registering I'll have to see what my new job schedule looks like.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Azraele on January 26, 2018, 12:40:41 AM
Quote from: omega;1021932
two wights dont make a wong.

The title of this thread should have been "wight makes wight"

Dammit
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Willie the Duck on January 26, 2018, 07:56:06 AM
Wight on.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on January 26, 2018, 08:42:25 AM
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1022022
Wight on.

No, I think it's tomb to wight off this whole thread.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Azraele on January 26, 2018, 11:38:59 AM
Alternative thread titles:

"A Hard Day's Wight"

"Wight the good Wight"

"You've got to fight for your Wight to par-tay"

"Wight after Wight"

"In the heat of the Wight"

"Wightious fury"

"Midwight run"

"Another Wight another dream"

"Wightcourt"

"Thrill me chill me fulfill me; creature of the Wight"

"Wight of the living dead" (Actually that's pretty good)

"A Wight for sore eyes"

"There's a Wight in the darkness of everybody's Wight"

"All bark and no Wight"

"Wightwashing: the story of antebellum Carcosa"
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Willie the Duck on January 27, 2018, 07:31:57 AM
Cream's In the Wight Room, with Black Cloakers.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Azraele on January 28, 2018, 01:45:37 AM
For those of you who wanted closure; the plan worked! Actually, it went off better than expected. Antipaladin failed his roll and a hilarious combat ensued with decapitated wight children and many levels drained on both sides. Fun was had! And my player learned not to abuse his god-sent gift without proper forethought and planning.

Frankly it was a fun little icebreaker to start the session with. Set an upbeat and humorous tone!
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: soltakss on January 28, 2018, 10:30:36 AM
Quote from: Azraele;1022317
For those of you who wanted closure; the plan worked! Actually, it went off better than expected. Antipaladin failed his roll and a hilarious combat ensued with decapitated wight children and many levels drained on both sides. Fun was had! And my player learned not to abuse his god-sent gift without proper forethought and planning.

Frankly it was a fun little icebreaker to start the session with. Set an upbeat and humorous tone!

All Wight!
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Bren on January 28, 2018, 02:13:02 PM
Now I've got this song in my head....

   Mommy's all wight
Daddy's all wight
They just seem a little weird
Surrender
Surrender
But don't give yourself away
Hey, heeeeeey
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 28, 2018, 05:41:06 PM
Sigh.

Nine.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Elfdart on January 28, 2018, 07:30:42 PM
Quote from: Bren;1021360
They would be Great Wight Hunters.

Speaking of great hunters, Elmer Fudd once said:

Quote
Two wrongs don't make a wight!
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Tulpa Girl on January 29, 2018, 09:26:52 AM
Quote from: Azraele;1022317
For those of you who wanted closure; the plan worked! Actually, it went off better than expected. Antipaladin failed his roll and a hilarious combat ensued with decapitated wight children and many levels drained on both sides. Fun was had! And my player learned not to abuse his god-sent gift without proper forethought and planning.

Frankly it was a fun little icebreaker to start the session with. Set an upbeat and humorous tone!

...and all is wight with the world.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: rawma on January 29, 2018, 08:43:42 PM
Quote from: Elfdart;1022424
Speaking of great hunters, Elmer Fudd once said:

Quote
Two wrongs don't make a wight!


I am very sad that all the wight puns were beaten to death before I had a chance to post in this thread.

But I feel obliged to observe that four wrongs squared, minus two wrongs to the fourth power, divided by this formula, do make a wight.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: cranebump on January 30, 2018, 04:43:49 PM
Quote from: rawma;1022640
I am very sad that all the wight puns were beaten to death before I had a chance to post in this thread.

But I feel obliged to observe that four wrongs squared, minus two wrongs to the fourth power, divided by this formula, do make a wight.

Wight on, brutha.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: RPGPundit on February 01, 2018, 01:06:13 AM
Well, in my Dark Albion setting, there's a whole island that's infested with wights. The Isle of Wights, of course.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Azraele on February 01, 2018, 01:16:34 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;1022989
Well, in my Dark Albion setting, there's a whole island that's infested with wights. The Isle of Wights, of course.

I like this post, because it means you have an answer to the wightpocalypse: "Confine them to an island"

Also; fun map margins! "Here there be Dragons but over HERE there be WIGHTS so you best step the f$^% OFF SON"
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Gorilla_Zod on February 01, 2018, 06:03:18 AM
I remember reading years ago that some GM's solution to this problem was to have all wights be part of a shadowy protection racket, sort of like "You leave us alone to do our wight thing, and we don't apocalypsise your setting." I thought that was funny.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: RPGPundit on February 04, 2018, 05:03:37 AM
Quote from: Azraele;1022991
I like this post, because it means you have an answer to the wightpocalypse: "Confine them to an island"

Also; fun map margins! "Here there be Dragons but over HERE there be WIGHTS so you best step the f$^% OFF SON"

Yeah. I mean, obviously it started as a pun, but it works.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Bren on February 04, 2018, 11:49:43 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;1023596
Yeah. I mean, obviously it started as a pun, but it works.
Any Dark Albion/Lion & Dragon setting definitely needs an Isle of Wights.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: RPGPundit on February 06, 2018, 04:02:47 AM
Quote from: Bren;1023618
Any Dark Albion/Lion & Dragon setting definitely needs an Isle of Wights.

I'm not sure how that's true. But I do think it's fun to have.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 06, 2018, 01:20:22 PM
Doctor Strange created his house servant from two undead revenants.

Two wights made a Wong.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Bren on February 06, 2018, 06:44:27 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;1023951
I'm not sure how that's true. But I do think it's fun to have.
It's true

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1024011
Two wights made a Wong.
I believe that has already been used in this thread.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Krimson on February 06, 2018, 09:59:04 PM
Wait until they find out who their queen is... Betty Wight.

Yes, I am resisting the urge to write that up.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: darthfozzywig on February 07, 2018, 12:00:45 AM
All these terrible undead puns are going to generate a lot of wight guilt.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Christopher Brady on February 07, 2018, 05:42:12 AM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1021245
No idea, but I'm honestly less afraid of some Wight Power group taking over than I am of Black Arts Matter or By Any Magic Necessary. Antifay is pretty bad too, but nobody likes Faeries.

I love you man, that's just beautiful.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Warboss Squee on February 07, 2018, 07:28:45 AM
I'm a little sad you didn't roll with the apocalypse, and have them roll up new characters. But I suppose you have to do what you think is wight.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: RPGPundit on February 11, 2018, 04:40:58 AM
In my DCC session last time, the PCs ran into the leader of a rebel motorcycle gang of undead called the Wight Knights. Which sounded really troubling until they figured out the spelling.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 11, 2018, 05:10:41 PM
Quote from: Krimson;1024079
Wait until they find out who their queen is... Betty Wight.

Yes, I am resisting the urge to write that up.

You mean "wight that up."
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Bren on February 11, 2018, 05:36:11 PM
That made me snort. I owe you another beer.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 11, 2018, 05:53:07 PM
Works for me.
Title: How do YOU prevent the wight apocalypse?
Post by: RPGPundit on February 13, 2018, 12:58:03 AM
Betty Wight will probably need to show up in some DCC session in the future.