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Author Topic: How do you handle retreat?  (Read 3116 times)

Opaopajr

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Re: How do you handle retreat?
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2021, 03:49:13 PM »
 :) I am glad you guys like it! I hope it helps.

There are a lot of tidbits in the old systems (and in even some of the new ones!) that tend to get lost in the shuffle. I recommend going back and giving a thorough read to your systems from cover to cover, not just D&D either. You will be surrprised how much we assume from received information from learning play through others versus the actual text and author dialog. There are some great nuggets to find with patience!  :D

(answering mAcular: Yes, handled within Combat, where Rounds equal 1 minute. So people can go crazy in combat, declare what they wish and go!

I have ran simultaneous chases, hiding, melee ranged and wrestling fighting, magic casting, and parley all within the same 2e Combat. TSR D&D by being less exception-based rules involved mercifully fades back amid such activity. My best advice is adjust your Initiative Rules towards "Group Initiative Roll, Group Modifier" as that handles large battles and complications better; "Individual Initiative Roll, Individual Modifier" tends to work better for very small numbers, like duels or one-on-one chases, hide-and-seeks.

Stat checks tend to be Roll Under, and are as well with this Optional Rule. )
Just make your fuckin' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what's interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it's more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

mAcular Chaotic

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Re: How do you handle retreat?
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2021, 10:02:21 PM »
When someone has to "rest" on a failed CON check, what does that mean? Do they just have to stop moving? Can they still fight? Imagine a monster is behind them and they failed the CON check and it's going to reach them now. What can they do? Or are they basically useless?

And how many combat turns pass while they rest, in comparison? Like, do they only have to weather 1 turn of attacks, or 10?
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

Opaopajr

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Re: How do you handle retreat?
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2021, 01:56:50 AM »
A failed cumulative CON check means that they are exhausted and have to stop their current Run for next Round and Rest for One Turn (a Turn is Ten Rounds, a Round is One Minute. Thus a Turn is Ten Minutes).

As for what that means is up to you the GM! Personally I would leave it as the text and have it limit when you can start up another Run or Jog. Which means you can still fight, move (x1) ... you just cannot Jog or Run. But you do you!

Same applies to Jog. You can Jog for Rounds = CON without CON check. Once you go over you have a CON check (no mod). If you fail you rest for Rounds equal to Rounds You Jogged.

If you notice that actually makes the chase game more interesting! You can be in a Run and as you pass your cumulative CON check you then may choose to drop out of your Run in the next Round Declaration into a regular Walk or Jog. Depending on how much Jog Rounds you have left, you might be able to stop or risk starting back up into the same Run speed without exhausted resting.  8)

example:
Bob has STR 10, CON 10. Bob is trying to get away. Bob tries for Run x3 (STR check no mod). Success! Bob Runs for 3 rounds (= three minutes). Bob succeeds CON check at -1, -2, and -3.

Not wanting to push his luck and wanting to see what's going on, Bob declares for Round 4 to Jog and double back to spy on the fate of his pursuers. Bob Jogs back for 5 Rounds (= five minutes) without issue. Bob sees that his pursuers have captured his buddies -- and just spotted him too! On Round 9 Bob declares Run x4 (STR -4, roll 6 or below)!

Bob fails, he cannot attempt Run x4 again this run, so he maintains his Jog for this round and u-turns to get away. Bob has used 6 of his 10 Jog rounds, and might need them soon! On Round 10 Bob tries for Run x3 again (he succeeded last time so he is not barred from doing it again this run).

He succeeds! Bob runs at Run x3 another two rounds, passing his CON -1, CON -2, and CON -3 checks. He hears whistling from his pursuers, warning other guards to be on the lookout for runners, which is echoed directly ahead by responding guard whistles. Fearing he might have to fight, or climb, or hide, Bob does not want to be caught exhausted. On Round 13 Bob declares to Walk again, ending his run and trying to blend in with crowds.

This Walking requires no rolls to succeed, auto-success. Further, since there is no failed CON check there is no exhaustion requiring rest for one turn (ten minutes) for a failed Run. (And since this Jog was not over 10 rounds, Bob's CON, there is no failed Jog CON check to worry about.) Also, since Bob's Run and Jog has been ended normally he is still in condition to Run again anew if spotted and pursued, even try for Run x4 again, because it would be a brand new Jog & Run cycle.

For Round 14 Bob is debating between an alleyway to climb a building, a shop to hide, or drawing up his hood to risk threading the needle of alert guards further up the crowd and then making another break for it...


Basically this gives a complex 15 minutes chase scene with meaningful choices throughout. When to use your Jog rounds, when to shoot for a Run, and how hard of a Run? When to quit before you're exhausted? Do you want or need to juggle a bit of both, to keep moving from Run to Jog and back?

It's an optional rule to help you think about movement dynamically without being too heavily involved.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 02:07:04 AM by Opaopajr »
Just make your fuckin' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what's interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it's more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

Visitor Q

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Re: How do you handle retreat?
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2021, 10:50:10 AM »
In my experience, it tends to be all or nothing. Few times will the party leave a downed party member behind, and retrieving a downed party member contributes to the death spiral they're already dealing with. So retreat tends to be all or nothing, and usually at the start of an encounter when the character all have a chance of getting away sucessfully.

So, how do you handle retreat? Do you?


Thinking about this question I realised that retreats of various kinds happen very often in my games, both the ones I run and also the ones in which I am a player.  This is not surprising. 

Retreating is an absolute staple of adventure of all kinds, pulp fiction, fantasy and scifi.  Be it Han Solo fleeing from Strom Troopers in the Death Star or the Fellowship of the Ring fleeing through Moria from the Balrog.   I would suggest then that as a GM if you aren’t consciously incorporating them into your game you are perhaps missing a trick.

In gaming terms, I would say there are two main flavours of retreat.  These are the Rout and the Escape.

The Rout occurs when the players ideally don’t want to leave combat but due to circumstances, (generally losing) one or more of them realises they need to leave or they are going to die. 

The Escape occurs when the players may or may not have completed their goal but fleeing is obviously the new priority and there is no question amongst the (sane) members of the group.  For example, fleeing a lava flow or a cave in.

Of course, the Rout and the Escape can occur at the same time (a Player’s action removes a supporting wall in a castle for example).

The Rout
Handling the Rout depends heavily on the type of game you are running and the player characters involved. For example, if the group is prepared for a TPK or at least some party deaths.  Some players may feel the need to hold off pursing enemies and go down fighting.

With regard to fleeing it is worth noting that in some systems the movement rules are different if a character is literally just sprinting away heedless of their surroundings compared to moving tactically in a normal combat round.

It is also worth considering what any enemies are doing.  Are they happy to have driven off the intruders and in fact aren’t pursuing?  Were they expecting a pursuit and have plans in place for the eventuality (perhaps dropping portcullis or sounding alarm bells)?

What happens if the players are caught?  Most enemies will simply continue to attack but in other scenarios there may be a different outcome.  City Watch may seek to arrest criminal players for example.   If the enemies are not pursuing what are they doing? Looting or eating the bodies of fallen heroes, summoning reinforcements? Shoring up their defences for a counter attack?  In my experience the reaction of the enemies is the main determining factor in whether a TPK will result. 

In any case once combat completely degenerates into fleeing I believe the Rout is best determined in an abstract narrative way rather than strictly adhereing to the mechanics of movement.  Rather than a static movement value to determine success use Stats and skills like Athletics, Dexterity or Talents like Fleet Footed and Swift Stride.   Differences in movement can be used to grant bonuses to rolls.  Inaddition to emphasise the variety of skill sets being used as well I add in obstacles.  These can be as simple as tripping over tree roots to jumping past closing doors.  Failing a roll doesn’t necessarily mean the player is caught but it might mean a penalty to a next roll or taking some damage from an opponent on their heels.

For a group of four or five players I would suggest between 5-11 obstacles split between the party some of which may overlap but they shouldn’t all be the same.  Also don’t be afraid of having the fastest (or first) to leave essentially be able to avoid any obstacles and get clear without any rolls.  This can demonstrate the obvious advantage of cowardice!

Finally, as a GM it is worth having an end point for the Rout.  At what point are the players safe.  You don’t need to explicitly tell the players this and indeed within reason concealing this can lead to some amusing (and perhaps realistic) outcomes with the players fleeing far further and farther than necessary.

The Escape

The Escape is mechanically rather similar to the Rout with the exception that for narrative reasons the danger not fleeing presents is often obviously grave and hence needs to be handled with care. 

For example in a Rout having been beaten by a tribe of orcs a party flees.  If one of their number is caught and as a GM you are being merciful it is easy enough to simply say the party member is captured and dragged back to the orc warlord for interrogation.  By comparison in an Escape the group is more likely facing something along the lines of an avalanche or lava flow which cannot be easily survived without breaking the verisimilitude of the game. In this case I would suggest making it clear to the players that the main danger will kill them but mechanically make it quite easy to avoid if they keep moving.  However, the obstacles the players face are of a collateral nature linked to the main threat. 

For example, recently my group fled a cave being used by the vile ratmen for foul ceremonies to their dark god.  The cave was closing in around them, its sealing induced by a spell from the Skaven Grey Seer.  The players fled.  I determined it was unlikely the players would be sealed in if they kept moving but they did have to contend with a barrage of falling stones and some took damage on the way out.  In addition, saving their NPC comrades was less certain.

Similar to the Rout as a GM have a clear point where the players are safe.  Unlike the Rout it is generally more dramatic when the players can see safety in sight and can heroically make a final push for it.

Something to consider is that some scenarios naturally lend themselves to Retreating.  These are all scenarios I have run that I knew ahead of time would have a Retreat involved.

Warhammer 40K - Deathwatch: Space Marines planting a nuke on a derelict space station full of alien monstrosities.

Warhammer 40K – Dark Heresy: The Acolyte cell fleeing from cultists who had attacked the hotel during the mission briefing!

WFRP: Fleeing a Skaven temple that was caving in (as noted above).

WFRP – The Empire in Flames: Fleeing a Chaos portal that has just opened

Pendragon – Once and Future King: Players are Varangian Guards fleeing from a castle after having robbed the Imperial treasury as the demonic spirit of the Euphrates is unleashed and Saracens attack (it makes more sense in context).   

Pendragon – Once and Future King: Calmly retreating in good order after negotiating with some Welsh raiders, both sides having taken casualties (this one is border line a RP solution rather than full retreating but there was a lot of anxiety over a double cross that the players wanted to leave quickly).

Legend of the Five Rings: Fleeing with an Imperial child from a far superior evil monk that is planning to kill said Imperial child. 

Numenera:  Fleeing from Sathosh raiders, through a fortress experiencing both a spatial and temporal collapse and into a time portal…

Finally, my all time favourite (unplanned) retreat happened in a Dark Heresy game when a player character picked a fight with a group of wasteland savages.  The rest of the group backed him and squared up to the wastelanders.  First round of combat the player character who had initiated the fight fled.  The character proceeded to run a large arc around the border of the combat area.  When it was clear the fight had been won the player character returned and finished off the leader of the wasteland savages.  Needless to say, as GM I found this amusing.  The PCs own group less so.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 10:52:54 AM by Visitor Q »

rickss

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Re: How do you handle retreat?
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2021, 02:09:38 AM »
For us (2e ish)

4.   Flee
Flee: Move away at ≤ full movement with a –2 initiative modifier, providing the opponent a free melee attack with a +4 bonus To Hit but no movement. If a fleeing character wins Initiative, they can increase the distance from pursuers by an additional 1” × their Initiative once every turn.
The +4 bonus To Hit incorporates the +2 rear bonus and the +2 stun bonus as they turn to flee.

Scenario: Defender and Pursuer are in melee range (1").
Defender decides to flee: ( d10 [Base Initiative] – 2 [Flee modifier] ).
Pursuer decides to attack: ( d10 [Base Initiative] + [Weapon Speed] ).

Flee Scenario 4a: Pursuer Wins Initiative
Pursuer attacks. Defender moves away (up to full movement). Pursuer makes a free attack on Defender Initiative with a +4 flee bonus To Hit, but cannot respond otherwise (having acted on Initiative).

Flee Scenario 4b: Defender Wins Initiative
Defender moves away (up to full movement + Initiative). Pursuer makes an immediate free attack with a +4 flee bonus To Hit. If Pursuer wields a melee weapon usable at range (e.g., dagger), Pursuer can ranged attack on Initiative with a +2 rear bonus To Hit but penalized by the distance on Initiative (–2 To Hit for medium range, –5 To Hit for long range).

•   If Pursuer Base Initiative > Defender Initiative, Pursuer can Change Action1 at Base Initiative, and pursue Defender (up to full movement) on revised Initiative: ([Base Initiative] + d10 [new Initiative roll] + 2 [Change modifier] + 8 [Full Movement modifier] ). If revised Initiative is > 20, movement will occur the next round on Initiative –20; must move towards Defender.
•   If Pursuer Base Initiative ≤ Defender Initiative, Pursuer cannot Change Action, but could melee with a different opponent within 1".
1Pursuer cannot Change Action to Charge, as they are considered engaged for the round.

5.   Pursuit
If the fleeing character wins Initiative, they can increase the distance from pursuers by an additional 1” × their Initiative once every turn they flee. If the pursuer begins the round in melee range and attacks, combat is resolved as if their opponent is fleeing. If the fleeing character is out of visual range, or in an area of "difficult" terrain, a check is made to see if evasion is successful.

Pursuit Scenario 5a: Pursuit
Evader moved the prior round, Pursuer is in pursuit.
Both decide to continue to move: ( d10 [Initiative] + 8 [Move > ½ modifier] ).
Evader moves on Initiative. Once per 10 rounds, Evader can move an additional 1” × Initiative if they won Initiative. Pursuer moves to Evader on Initiative, and completes round (limited to full movement) adjacent to Evader.
Note: If Evader wins Initiative, and turns corners on Initiative, they are out of sight of Pursuer—Pursuer will not know the direction!

Pursuit Scenario 5b: Pursuer Stops and Attacks
Evader moved the prior round, Pursuer is in pursuit within 1".
Pursuer decides to attack instead of pursue: ( d10 [Initiative] + [Weapon Speed modifier] ).
Evader decides to continue to flee: ( d10 [Initiative] – 2 [Flee modifier] ).
•   If Pursuer wins Initiative, Pursuer attacks (with a +2 rear bonus To Hit). On Evader Initiative, Pursuer gains a free attack with a +4 flee bonus To Hit, but cannot move.
•   If Pursuer loses Initiative, when Evader moves Pursuer gains an immediate free attack with a +4 flee bonus To Hit but cannot move. If Pursuer wields a melee weapon usable at range (e.g., hand axe), Pursuer can ranged attack with a +2 rear bonus To Hit but penalized by the distance on Initiative (–2 To Hit for medium range, –5 To Hit for long range).

6.   Withdraw
Withdraw/Falling Back: Backing away from opponent at ⅓ Movement, still in melee if pursued.
Scenario: Defender decides to Withdraw: ( d10 [Base Initiative] + 4 [ Move ≤ ½ modifier] ).
Pursuer decides to attack: ( d10 [Base Initiative] + [Weapon Speed modifier] ).
•   If Pursuer wins Initiative, Pursuer attacks. Defender withdraws up to ⅓ Movement. Pursuer can immediately follow (up to full movement); Defender attacks on Initiative if Pursuer follows and is within 1".
•   If Defender wins Initiative, Defender withdraws up to ⅓ Movement. If Pursuer follows on Initiative (up to full movement), Defender and then Pursuer attack if within 1".