In my experience, it tends to be all or nothing. Few times will the party leave a downed party member behind, and retrieving a downed party member contributes to the death spiral they're already dealing with. So retreat tends to be all or nothing, and usually at the start of an encounter when the character all have a chance of getting away sucessfully.
So, how do you handle retreat? Do you?
It depends on if we're just talking about running on foot through a dungeon, or if it's something else. For the former, running is usually a pain in the ass for numerous reasons. However, teleporting out (in fantasy or Star Trek) is an option, and some games specifically have chase (pursuit/evasion) systems in them making it far more interesting than stop-and-go turn-based movement on a squared-off grid.
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 23, 2021, 05:09:27 PM
It depends on if we're just talking about running on foot through a dungeon, or if it's something else. For the former, running is usually a pain in the ass for numerous reasons. However, teleporting out (in fantasy or Star Trek) is an option, and some games specifically have chase (pursuit/evasion) systems in them making it far more interesting than stop-and-go turn-based movement on a squared-off grid.
I generally do it that once you're off the grid you're out of turn-based combat. That usually means you escape - especially if there are guys on your side still fighting. It pays to be the first to run!
If there's a pursuit I'll usually do some opposed checks; in 5e Athletics is likely. Losers on the fleeing side get caught, winners get away.
I used a simplified initiative where it is roughly half the characters, then the monsters, then the other half of the characters. If a party member calls for a retreat in a way that the party can notice, then I let them start as a group. Much easier to manage that way. They've got to break contact somehow, which is more of a party thing than individual characters.
I run a game such that if the party doesn't retreat at times, even mid-fight, they'll be dead.
I'm using D6 so I just copy-pasta the star wars D6 chase mess; rolls to negotiate terrain at high speed can open distance or allow pursuers to catch up and re-engage.
Nothing really to it. But if the PCs aren't all faster than the enemies, they'll have to figure a way to stop or slow the pursuers. One of those old Gygaxian dungeon areas with a corridor of many doors, or many small connected rooms, which allow the retreating party to get out of the sight of the pursuers. But a dropping something of value to the enemies hoping they will break off pursuit is an easy go-to. The point is, it's what the players do that make the chases interesting.
Over the decades I've seen all sorts of approaches from players.
Some just abandon ship and run. And to hell with the hindmost.
Some so a stepped retreat, getting the worst out first while those still able cover for them.
Some bolt at the start if it looks bad or they are already dinged up enough that running now is better than sticking around and finding out if they can handle it or not,
Then theres the scattershot retreat where one runs, then another, and another and another. About always gradated by level of stubborness to retreat or just determination to punch through, or even seeing no way to flee at that point and they go down fighting or somehow survive.
Even seen where some of the group fell back just enough to slug down a potion or to get to cover and plink away at range while others acted as delaying action or distraction.
Recently was in a Champions game playing a rather tough little character and one by one the others bailed will there was just me and another fellow plugging away. Then he gave up and bailed too leaving me. And so I said what the hell and continued on. Partially out of spite, partially to see how far I'd get. Surprisingly made it through the remaining plethora of henchmen to the villain and after a gruelling slug fest actually won.
No special rules for retreat: characters can use an action to move their speed, that's it. A character can chose to move twice their speed in that action ("running"), and are easier to hit for one round if they do.
Of course, an enemy can simply use their own initial action to close that distance before attacking again, emulating the classic "give-ground-while-attacking" motif.
I don't allow moving past enemy combatants however, so unless there's room to go around -- and a good reason to do so -- a monster engaged with a non-retreating character won't be pursuing a retreating character. In other words, "I'll hold it off while you escape!" works in my game.
If everyone turns tail and runs away at top speed, the enemy can only attack them if they can catch them -- i.e. if it can cover the distance retreated and still attack. If it does so, it can attack the slowest party member with significant advantage, according to the running rule.
Quote from: Zalman on February 24, 2021, 10:28:38 AM
If everyone turns tail and runs away at top speed, the enemy can only attack them if they can catch them -- i.e. if it can cover the distance retreated and still attack. If it does so, it can attack the slowest party member with significant advantage, according to the running rule.
And if they have the same movement rate, then it's effectively a running stalemate unless/until the rules say someone is too fatigued to continue to run. Some rulesets may cover this, but many of them that do, do so very poorly.
I fondly remember the one and only time I witnessed an honest-to-god actual rout of PCs.
It was decades ago, so I don't recall all the specific details, but the game was Rolemaster, and the party had encountered some kind of incorporeal undead, which it became clear they could not defeat. The only open avenue of escape was up some stairs. As everyone was moving at pace, I had them make manoeuvre rolls to confirm what actual speed they were moving at. Then, when faster people were stuck behind slower ones, I asked whether they were pushing past ... as soon as one was, they all were. Someone fell down. Did anyone stop to help? Nope, we're just carrying on over the top of them, because if we stop we die. I don't know if more than one PC ended up dying, but I definitely remember the chaos and the every man, woman, dwarf and elf for themselves attitude that just emerged naturally.
I don't think I've ever seen anything else quite like it.
I have had a small number of heroic last stands, where one or more characters give their lives so the rest of the group can escape. One was a lone character holding back a dragon, also Rolemaster, back in my high school days.
More recently, playing Hackmaster, the PCs bit off more than they could chew, and by the time they realised how dire the situation was, it was far too late for any kind of orderly withdrawal. However, one or two PCs and a henchman did what needed to be done and, with a bit of luck, careful positioning and valiant selflessness, they were able to enable the rest of the group to escape, laying down their lives in the process.
More recently again, and back to Rolemaster, the PCs took on a demon that greatly outclassed them. They had managed to reduce the demon's minions down to the point they were manageable (and where victory seemed within the realms of possibility). When the enemy reinforcements arrived, the PCs were just barely able to disengage and escape before they were overrun.
I do agree, though, that usually, orderly retreats are next to impossible unless they're done immediately.
In my early Killer GM phase, we never saw the one person sacrifice themselves so the group could escape. We did often see one person escapes while the rest of the party sacrifices themselves to make it happen. Though they usually played it in character, there was definitely an OOC component of dark humor to it as well. The reasoning went that if no one escaped, then all the XP and valuable treasure they had found was gone. One character escaping was probably going to level and be close to another one and have a lot of money to recruit henchman and arm the next party. With a distinct mission to go avenge the previous defeat and get the rest of the treasure probably still laying there.
Depending on their chances, it was usually the cleric or wizard chosen to run. Starting over with a 3rd or 4th level spell caster in a 1st level party is not nearly so difficult. It was also seen as one of the perks of playing such a character. :D
Since I use personal judgment about NPC motivations, along with Reaction and Morale Rolls, Retreat has a wide range of success in my games.
Animals usually are motivated by survival, be it food or flee.
Sapient creatures (i.e. humanoids) are usually motivated by cultural ethos mixed with survival and exploitation, so they are the ones I most rely on Reaction Rolls, etc. Parley, bribery, threats, and all sorts of fun stuff can then hit the table.
Alien/Planar creatures are motivated by tech needs/planar ethos, which allows wider range in random table rolls to surprise everyone including me the GM.
Thus hunting down PCs like Spec Op Terminators is usually an unusual course of action in my games. So when elite morale spec op death squads do appear -- like undead hordes, the possessed, or robots -- it makes their threat all the more meaningful. There are so many more meaningful choices appear when you allow for GM judgment and random tables to set up more flexible contexts!
edit: I have had orderly withdrawal retreats in my game, pretty common actually. I allow it if they can use their higher AC members take the front, use terrain and distance to minimize being surrounded, and allow the back rows to haul out the injured faster. And since I allow employment of fighter hirelings and play them with a considerably combat-aware "AI," this has even ended up being lynchpin saviors in a few orderly withdrawals. Those retreats often ended up more memorably epic than modern "I explode with Awesome Powah!" set piece battles they've won.
Retreat in D&D seems hard, mechanically, especially from 3E and on.
You have to do it turn by turn, and most of the time the bad guys move JUST as fast as the PCs, so it just ends up in a never ending stalemate of "i dash" "ok it dashes after you" which turns into tedium.
I want to add retreat as a viable -- and fun -- option to my games, but faced with that, I'm not sure how.
There's the idea of making it so it's a groupwide decision to retreat, which shifts into a chase mode -- but that brings its own problems. Do the players have to decide turn by turn? Does everyone decide out of character or in character? What if only some want to run and not others, are we going to have to run a combat AND a chase simultaneously now?
In 2e you have Chase rules for increasing your speed as cumulative STR & CON checks, up to 5x your MV. Due to those cumulative checks it CANNOT remain an endless stalemate. It seems involved, and it is, but in practice it manages well juggling various elements of the chaos of battle. So orderly retreats and full on chases can simultaneously occur without much issue.
It's like the Punch & Wrestling tables. They seem chaotic and complex, but in reality it is a separate sub-system that cleanly operates and then gets out of the way. These are just some of the virtues TSR D&D adds to my games and why I prefer remaining with it.
That said, since the sub-systems are separate (discrete) it takes little to incorporate it to your own table.
Basically >:( 'The Future is in the Past', 'You've been stuck playing the badwrongfun for too long', and 'My sympathy to you, WotC kids'. >:( ;D do i have to /sarcasm? yes. yes, i do. ;D It's nowhere near as hard as the modern age has been trying to sell it to you.
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What's the STR/CON checks for how 2e handles it? If there's a way to do it in 5e without it turning into a slog then I'm game.
I thought OD&D was the one that mainly did retreats, where you run blindly through different hallways and might be doomed.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 23, 2021, 05:01:28 PM
....So, how do you handle retreat? Do you?
QuoteParticipants in a melee can opt to attack, parry, fall back, or flee. Attack can be by weapon, bare hands, or grappling. Parrying disallows any return attack that round, but the strength "to hit" bonus is then subtracted from the opponent's "to hit" dice roll(s), so the character is less likely to be hit. Falling back is a retrograde move facing the opponent(s) and can be used in conjunction with a parry, and opponent creatures are able to follow if not otherwise engaged. Fleeing means as rapid a withdrawal from combat as possible; while it exposes the character to rear attack at the time, subsequent attacks can only be made if the opponent is able to follow the fleeing character at equal or greater speed. -- PHB 1e, pp. 104-5
Thus it makes sense to have the strongest fighters cover the retreat, and their job is to absorb hits while the remainder of the party flees.
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 24, 2021, 05:11:44 PM
Quote from: Zalman on February 24, 2021, 10:28:38 AM
If everyone turns tail and runs away at top speed, the enemy can only attack them if they can catch them -- i.e. if it can cover the distance retreated and still attack. If it does so, it can attack the slowest party member with significant advantage, according to the running rule.
And if they have the same movement rate, then it's effectively a running stalemate unless/until the rules say someone is too fatigued to continue to run. Some rulesets may cover this, but many of them that do, do so very poorly.
As per the DMG 1e (p. 68), if they have the same movement rate then the pursuit will end if: The pursued are in sight but over 150' distant; or the pursued are out of sight and were over 80' distant when they left the perception of the pursuer(s); or pursuit has continued over 1 turn, and the pursuer has not gained perceptibly upon the pursued.
Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on February 26, 2021, 05:47:40 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 23, 2021, 05:01:28 PM
....So, how do you handle retreat? Do you?
QuoteParticipants in a melee can opt to attack, parry, fall back, or flee. Attack can be by weapon, bare hands, or grappling. Parrying disallows any return attack that round, but the strength "to hit" bonus is then subtracted from the opponent's "to hit" dice roll(s), so the character is less likely to be hit. Falling back is a retrograde move facing the opponent(s) and can be used in conjunction with a parry, and opponent creatures are able to follow if not otherwise engaged. Fleeing means as rapid a withdrawal from combat as possible; while it exposes the character to rear attack at the time, subsequent attacks can only be made if the opponent is able to follow the fleeing character at equal or greater speed. -- PHB 1e, pp. 104-5
Thus it makes sense to have the strongest fighters cover the retreat, and their job is to absorb hits while the remainder of the party flees.
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 24, 2021, 05:11:44 PM
Quote from: Zalman on February 24, 2021, 10:28:38 AM
If everyone turns tail and runs away at top speed, the enemy can only attack them if they can catch them -- i.e. if it can cover the distance retreated and still attack. If it does so, it can attack the slowest party member with significant advantage, according to the running rule.
And if they have the same movement rate, then it's effectively a running stalemate unless/until the rules say someone is too fatigued to continue to run. Some rulesets may cover this, but many of them that do, do so very poorly.
As per the DMG 1e (p. 68), if they have the same movement rate then the pursuit will end if: The pursued are in sight but over 150' distant; or the pursued are out of sight and were over 80' distant when they left the perception of the pursuer(s); or pursuit has continued over 1 turn, and the pursuer has not gained perceptibly upon the pursued.
So pursuit can end with the pursued in-sight at 151+ feet? Do the pursuers not even try using ranged weapons and spells? Is it some weird video game where the characters have left the zone so the monsters reset?
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 26, 2021, 07:00:58 AM
So pursuit can end with the pursued in-sight at 151+ feet? Do the pursuers not even try using ranged weapons and spells? Is it some weird video game where the characters have left the zone so the monsters reset?
Dude, I want to see you fire a longbow at a fleeing creature 150' away, while also running full out yourself to maintain that distance. In fact, video it and put it on Youtube. I need the humor right now...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 26, 2021, 03:39:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 26, 2021, 07:00:58 AM
So pursuit can end with the pursued in-sight at 151+ feet? Do the pursuers not even try using ranged weapons and spells? Is it some weird video game where the characters have left the zone so the monsters reset?
Dude, I want to see you fire a longbow at a fleeing creature 150' away, while also running full out yourself to maintain that distance. In fact, video it and put it on Youtube. I need the humor right now...
Nothing in D&D is like real life. In D&D making such bow shots is hardly a great feat, and spells don't miss. But if you want me to add up the bonus and roll the dice for an experienced PC, I'm not really interested. It's not going to be very exciting to watch for most, but if you're the type that gets off on hearing stories about what other people's characters can do, well, I'd suggest switching to something healthier...like porn.
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 26, 2021, 04:11:38 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 26, 2021, 03:39:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 26, 2021, 07:00:58 AM
So pursuit can end with the pursued in-sight at 151+ feet? Do the pursuers not even try using ranged weapons and spells? Is it some weird video game where the characters have left the zone so the monsters reset?
Dude, I want to see you fire a longbow at a fleeing creature 150' away, while also running full out yourself to maintain that distance. In fact, video it and put it on Youtube. I need the humor right now...
Nothing in D&D is like real life.
Congratulations, you've almost figured it out.
Now, the next question is: should it be? And does your answer to that question invalidate your original complaint that I responded to?
Everybody dies.
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 26, 2021, 07:00:58 AM
Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on February 26, 2021, 05:47:40 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 23, 2021, 05:01:28 PM
....So, how do you handle retreat? Do you?
QuoteParticipants in a melee can opt to attack, parry, fall back, or flee. Attack can be by weapon, bare hands, or grappling. Parrying disallows any return attack that round, but the strength "to hit" bonus is then subtracted from the opponent's "to hit" dice roll(s), so the character is less likely to be hit. Falling back is a retrograde move facing the opponent(s) and can be used in conjunction with a parry, and opponent creatures are able to follow if not otherwise engaged. Fleeing means as rapid a withdrawal from combat as possible; while it exposes the character to rear attack at the time, subsequent attacks can only be made if the opponent is able to follow the fleeing character at equal or greater speed. -- PHB 1e, pp. 104-5
Thus it makes sense to have the strongest fighters cover the retreat, and their job is to absorb hits while the remainder of the party flees.
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 24, 2021, 05:11:44 PM
Quote from: Zalman on February 24, 2021, 10:28:38 AM
If everyone turns tail and runs away at top speed, the enemy can only attack them if they can catch them -- i.e. if it can cover the distance retreated and still attack. If it does so, it can attack the slowest party member with significant advantage, according to the running rule.
And if they have the same movement rate, then it's effectively a running stalemate unless/until the rules say someone is too fatigued to continue to run. Some rulesets may cover this, but many of them that do, do so very poorly.
As per the DMG 1e (p. 68), if they have the same movement rate then the pursuit will end if: The pursued are in sight but over 150' distant; or the pursued are out of sight and were over 80' distant when they left the perception of the pursuer(s); or pursuit has continued over 1 turn, and the pursuer has not gained perceptibly upon the pursued.
So pursuit can end with the pursued in-sight at 151+ feet? Do the pursuers not even try using ranged weapons and spells? Is it some weird video game where the characters have left the zone so the monsters reset?
Outdoors switches to yards, and also one cannot shoot a bow 150' in a dungeon due to ceiling height. These rules were written after years of table top wargames experience, so unlike modern d&d these rules actually work.
Also, dungeons have blind corners and traps, so it's very easy to be ambushed. Even monsters with low intelligence are smart enough to know not to blindly run into enemy territory. But as always, rule #1 of AD&D 1e is DM common sense trumps all other rules, so there will always be exceptions based on the situation, such as if the pursuers know their prey is being chased into a trap.
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 26, 2021, 07:00:58 AM
Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on February 26, 2021, 05:47:40 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 23, 2021, 05:01:28 PM
....So, how do you handle retreat? Do you?
QuoteParticipants in a melee can opt to attack, parry, fall back, or flee. Attack can be by weapon, bare hands, or grappling. Parrying disallows any return attack that round, but the strength "to hit" bonus is then subtracted from the opponent's "to hit" dice roll(s), so the character is less likely to be hit. Falling back is a retrograde move facing the opponent(s) and can be used in conjunction with a parry, and opponent creatures are able to follow if not otherwise engaged. Fleeing means as rapid a withdrawal from combat as possible; while it exposes the character to rear attack at the time, subsequent attacks can only be made if the opponent is able to follow the fleeing character at equal or greater speed. -- PHB 1e, pp. 104-5
Thus it makes sense to have the strongest fighters cover the retreat, and their job is to absorb hits while the remainder of the party flees.
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 24, 2021, 05:11:44 PM
Quote from: Zalman on February 24, 2021, 10:28:38 AM
If everyone turns tail and runs away at top speed, the enemy can only attack them if they can catch them -- i.e. if it can cover the distance retreated and still attack. If it does so, it can attack the slowest party member with significant advantage, according to the running rule.
And if they have the same movement rate, then it's effectively a running stalemate unless/until the rules say someone is too fatigued to continue to run. Some rulesets may cover this, but many of them that do, do so very poorly.
As per the DMG 1e (p. 68), if they have the same movement rate then the pursuit will end if: The pursued are in sight but over 150' distant; or the pursued are out of sight and were over 80' distant when they left the perception of the pursuer(s); or pursuit has continued over 1 turn, and the pursuer has not gained perceptibly upon the pursued.
So pursuit can end with the pursued in-sight at 151+ feet? Do the pursuers not even try using ranged weapons and spells? Is it some weird video game where the characters have left the zone so the monsters reset?
The problem is you'll just end up with three hours of bored players as you plink away at each other and chase feet after feet to no end.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on February 26, 2021, 06:05:17 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 26, 2021, 07:00:58 AM
Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on February 26, 2021, 05:47:40 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 23, 2021, 05:01:28 PM
....So, how do you handle retreat? Do you?
QuoteParticipants in a melee can opt to attack, parry, fall back, or flee. Attack can be by weapon, bare hands, or grappling. Parrying disallows any return attack that round, but the strength "to hit" bonus is then subtracted from the opponent's "to hit" dice roll(s), so the character is less likely to be hit. Falling back is a retrograde move facing the opponent(s) and can be used in conjunction with a parry, and opponent creatures are able to follow if not otherwise engaged. Fleeing means as rapid a withdrawal from combat as possible; while it exposes the character to rear attack at the time, subsequent attacks can only be made if the opponent is able to follow the fleeing character at equal or greater speed. -- PHB 1e, pp. 104-5
Thus it makes sense to have the strongest fighters cover the retreat, and their job is to absorb hits while the remainder of the party flees.
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 24, 2021, 05:11:44 PM
Quote from: Zalman on February 24, 2021, 10:28:38 AM
If everyone turns tail and runs away at top speed, the enemy can only attack them if they can catch them -- i.e. if it can cover the distance retreated and still attack. If it does so, it can attack the slowest party member with significant advantage, according to the running rule.
And if they have the same movement rate, then it's effectively a running stalemate unless/until the rules say someone is too fatigued to continue to run. Some rulesets may cover this, but many of them that do, do so very poorly.
As per the DMG 1e (p. 68), if they have the same movement rate then the pursuit will end if: The pursued are in sight but over 150' distant; or the pursued are out of sight and were over 80' distant when they left the perception of the pursuer(s); or pursuit has continued over 1 turn, and the pursuer has not gained perceptibly upon the pursued.
So pursuit can end with the pursued in-sight at 151+ feet? Do the pursuers not even try using ranged weapons and spells? Is it some weird video game where the characters have left the zone so the monsters reset?
The problem is you'll just end up with three hours of bored players as you plink away at each other and chase feet after feet to no end.
Exactly. I prefer having a system that puts some randomness into the pursuit. Equal movement rates doesn't account for various things that might happen in a chase. Narrative systems have an edge here, but even Rolemaster does ok with move maneuver checks. D&D pretty much sucks with crap rules for pursuit.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on February 26, 2021, 12:18:00 AM
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What's the STR/CON checks for how 2e handles it? If there's a way to do it in 5e without it turning into a slog then I'm game.
I thought OD&D was the one that mainly did retreats, where you run blindly through different hallways and might be doomed.
AD&D 2e, PHB,
Time and Movement chapter, p. 120 (earliest printing). It's an Optional Rule in a blue box. :)
By core rules Human MV is typically 12, which is x10 in feet indoors, and x10 in yards outdoors.
You can go up to 5x your MV: 1x is basic Move (as above), 2x is Jog and freely available without STR/CON checks. 3x 4x and 5x are all Run and require STR/CON checks.
Run 3x is STR check (no add'l mods) to reach, and CON check -1 cumulative each round (e.g. 1st rd is -1, 2nd rd is -2, 3rd rd is -3, etc.).
Run 4x is STR check -4 to reach, and CON check -2 cumulative each round (e.g. 1st rd is -2, 2nd rd is -4, 3rd rd is -6, etc.).
Run 5x is STR check -8 to reach, and CON check -3 cumulative each round (e.g. 1st rd is -3, 2nd rd is -6, 3rd rd is -9, etc.).
You attempt to reach a certain Run speed. If you succeed you are at that Run and then do CON checks until failure, change to slower Walk or Jog speeds, or Rest. If you fail you maintain your current Run speed -- you cannot attempt that specific Run speed again this run -- but you can attempt other Run speeds later this running time.
At the end of a failed CON check rd you must end your Run and Rest for a Turn (ten rounds (rd), each round equals one minute, thus ten minutes).
Example:
Bob decides to Run for his life, at the very least he will be at a Jog. He rolls STR -8 to see if he can reach Run x5. Bob has MV 12, so x5 would = 60. Then times this by ten, so 600. If this is indoors this is in feet, 600 feet. If this is outdoors this is in yards (3 feet to the yard), 600 yards (or 1800 feet). Let's say Bob is in a Dungeon, indoors.
Bob fails the roll, but Jog is free without checks. Bob is Mv 24 (240') this first round. Bob cannot attempt a Run x5 anymore during this specific run.
During Round 2 Bob declares a Run x4 because he is still running for his life. This is at STR -4. He passes. Bob is Mv 48 (480') this second round. Bob will need to make CON -2 cumulative to maintain this. His first Run CON check he passes.
Bob miraculously passes his cumulative CON -2 checks for the next four rounds (his Run is 5 minutes long!). So Round 3 is CON -4, Round 4 is CON -6, Round 5' is CON -8, Round 6 is CON -10. Upon Failure Bob's Run ends and he must stop and Rest on Round 7. He must Rest for one Turn, ten minutes.
Bob has ran indoors for 480'x5 plus 240' for 2640', half a mile indoors! (with all its twisty corridors and furniture crap in the way), and is hopefully close to the surface and safety.You don't need to worry too much about "the maths" as long as you get the approximate pacing and easy 'ends in zero' mapped distances.
You can complicate terrain even more by using DMG Long Distance Terrain mods to adjust MV through them! :D So running uphill a knoll, next down into a grassy vale, then through a light forest... all modifiable quickly by those values. So chases by horseback versus difficult or impassable terrains, climbing results, cutting someone off at a pass... all doable by TSR D&D without getting
too involved! ;D
Chase and hide retreat scenes are awesome in games! Especially since context can change and pursuers can end up being ambushed or injured in pursuit. Then the tables can be reversed and chasing and hiding goes the other way! 8) Retreat can be so awesome if you are open to its possibilities and use some of these forgotten sub-systems.
Quote from: HappyDaze on February 26, 2021, 10:18:26 PM
Exactly. I prefer having a system that puts some randomness into the pursuit. Equal movement rates doesn't account for various things that might happen in a chase. Narrative systems have an edge here, but even Rolemaster does ok with move maneuver checks. D&D pretty much sucks with crap rules for pursuit.
5e does have actual chase rules with randomness in the DMG.
Quote from: Opaopajr on February 27, 2021, 12:43:41 AM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on February 26, 2021, 12:18:00 AM
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What's the STR/CON checks for how 2e handles it? If there's a way to do it in 5e without it turning into a slog then I'm game.
I thought OD&D was the one that mainly did retreats, where you run blindly through different hallways and might be doomed.
AD&D 2e, PHB, Time and Movement chapter, p. 120 (earliest printing). It's an Optional Rule in a blue box. :)
By core rules Human MV is typically 12, which is x10 in feet indoors, and x10 in yards outdoors.
You can go up to 5x your MV: 1x is basic Move (as above), 2x is Jog and freely available without STR/CON checks. 3x 4x and 5x are all Run and require STR/CON checks.
Run 3x is STR check (no add'l mods) to reach, and CON check -1 cumulative each round (e.g. 1st rd is -1, 2nd rd is -2, 3rd rd is -3, etc.).
Run 4x is STR check -4 to reach, and CON check -2 cumulative each round (e.g. 1st rd is -2, 2nd rd is -4, 3rd rd is -6, etc.).
Run 5x is STR check -8 to reach, and CON check -3 cumulative each round (e.g. 1st rd is -3, 2nd rd is -6, 3rd rd is -9, etc.).
You attempt to reach a certain Run speed. If you succeed you are at that Run and then do CON checks until failure, change to slower Walk or Jog speeds, or Rest. If you fail you maintain your current Run speed -- you cannot attempt that specific Run speed again this run -- but you can attempt other Run speeds later this running time.
At the end of a failed CON check rd you must end your Run and Rest for a Turn (ten rounds (rd), each round equals one minute, thus ten minutes).
Example:
Bob decides to Run for his life, at the very least he will be at a Jog. He rolls STR -8 to see if he can reach Run x5. Bob has MV 12, so x5 would = 60. Then times this by ten, so 600. If this is indoors this is in feet, 600 feet. If this is outdoors this is in yards (3 feet to the yard), 600 yards (or 1800 feet). Let's say Bob is in a Dungeon, indoors.
Bob fails the roll, but Jog is free without checks. Bob is Mv 24 (240') this first round. Bob cannot attempt a Run x5 anymore during this specific run.
During Round 2 Bob declares a Run x4 because he is still running for his life. This is at STR -4. He passes. Bob is Mv 48 (480') this second round. Bob will need to make CON -2 cumulative to maintain this. His first Run CON check he passes.
Bob miraculously passes his cumulative CON -2 checks for the next four rounds (his Run is 5 minutes long!). So Round 3 is CON -4, Round 4 is CON -6, Round 5' is CON -8, Round 6 is CON -10. Upon Failure Bob's Run ends and he must stop and Rest on Round 7. He must Rest for one Turn, ten minutes.
Bob has ran indoors for 480'x5 plus 240' for 2640', half a mile indoors! (with all its twisty corridors and furniture crap in the way), and is hopefully close to the surface and safety.
You don't need to worry too much about "the maths" as long as you get the approximate pacing and easy 'ends in zero' mapped distances.
You can complicate terrain even more by using DMG Long Distance Terrain mods to adjust MV through them! :D So running uphill a knoll, next down into a grassy vale, then through a light forest... all modifiable quickly by those values. So chases by horseback versus difficult or impassable terrains, climbing results, cutting someone off at a pass... all doable by TSR D&D without getting too involved! ;D
Chase and hide retreat scenes are awesome in games! Especially since context can change and pursuers can end up being ambushed or injured in pursuit. Then the tables can be reversed and chasing and hiding goes the other way! 8) Retreat can be so awesome if you are open to its possibilities and use some of these forgotten sub-systems.
Wow, this is great. Awesome.
Is this done on a turn by turn basis, like combat? Like if it's combat and people are fighting a Black Pudding, and one player decides to run... do you just adjudicate his retreat using this during his turn like any other action in combat (like attacking) while everyone else is doing their own thing on their turns?
When you say you have to "reach" the run speed on a STR check... what's the DC? Is that set by the DM or is there a certain expected value? Like if you want to go for a Run x5, what do you need to beat.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on February 27, 2021, 01:56:02 AM
Quote from: Opaopajr on February 27, 2021, 12:43:41 AM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on February 26, 2021, 12:18:00 AM
:0
What's the STR/CON checks for how 2e handles it? If there's a way to do it in 5e without it turning into a slog then I'm game.
I thought OD&D was the one that mainly did retreats, where you run blindly through different hallways and might be doomed.
AD&D 2e, PHB, Time and Movement chapter, p. 120 (earliest printing). It's an Optional Rule in a blue box. :)
By core rules Human MV is typically 12, which is x10 in feet indoors, and x10 in yards outdoors.
You can go up to 5x your MV: 1x is basic Move (as above), 2x is Jog and freely available without STR/CON checks. 3x 4x and 5x are all Run and require STR/CON checks.
Run 3x is STR check (no add'l mods) to reach, and CON check -1 cumulative each round (e.g. 1st rd is -1, 2nd rd is -2, 3rd rd is -3, etc.).
Run 4x is STR check -4 to reach, and CON check -2 cumulative each round (e.g. 1st rd is -2, 2nd rd is -4, 3rd rd is -6, etc.).
Run 5x is STR check -8 to reach, and CON check -3 cumulative each round (e.g. 1st rd is -3, 2nd rd is -6, 3rd rd is -9, etc.).
You attempt to reach a certain Run speed. If you succeed you are at that Run and then do CON checks until failure, change to slower Walk or Jog speeds, or Rest. If you fail you maintain your current Run speed -- you cannot attempt that specific Run speed again this run -- but you can attempt other Run speeds later this running time.
At the end of a failed CON check rd you must end your Run and Rest for a Turn (ten rounds (rd), each round equals one minute, thus ten minutes).
Example:
Bob decides to Run for his life, at the very least he will be at a Jog. He rolls STR -8 to see if he can reach Run x5. Bob has MV 12, so x5 would = 60. Then times this by ten, so 600. If this is indoors this is in feet, 600 feet. If this is outdoors this is in yards (3 feet to the yard), 600 yards (or 1800 feet). Let's say Bob is in a Dungeon, indoors.
Bob fails the roll, but Jog is free without checks. Bob is Mv 24 (240') this first round. Bob cannot attempt a Run x5 anymore during this specific run.
During Round 2 Bob declares a Run x4 because he is still running for his life. This is at STR -4. He passes. Bob is Mv 48 (480') this second round. Bob will need to make CON -2 cumulative to maintain this. His first Run CON check he passes.
Bob miraculously passes his cumulative CON -2 checks for the next four rounds (his Run is 5 minutes long!). So Round 3 is CON -4, Round 4 is CON -6, Round 5' is CON -8, Round 6 is CON -10. Upon Failure Bob's Run ends and he must stop and Rest on Round 7. He must Rest for one Turn, ten minutes.
Bob has ran indoors for 480'x5 plus 240' for 2640', half a mile indoors! (with all its twisty corridors and furniture crap in the way), and is hopefully close to the surface and safety.
You don't need to worry too much about "the maths" as long as you get the approximate pacing and easy 'ends in zero' mapped distances.
You can complicate terrain even more by using DMG Long Distance Terrain mods to adjust MV through them! :D So running uphill a knoll, next down into a grassy vale, then through a light forest... all modifiable quickly by those values. So chases by horseback versus difficult or impassable terrains, climbing results, cutting someone off at a pass... all doable by TSR D&D without getting too involved! ;D
Chase and hide retreat scenes are awesome in games! Especially since context can change and pursuers can end up being ambushed or injured in pursuit. Then the tables can be reversed and chasing and hiding goes the other way! 8) Retreat can be so awesome if you are open to its possibilities and use some of these forgotten sub-systems.
Wow, this is great. Awesome.
Is this done on a turn by turn basis, like combat? Like if it's combat and people are fighting a Black Pudding, and one player decides to run... do you just adjudicate his retreat using this during his turn like any other action in combat (like attacking) while everyone else is doing their own thing on their turns?
When you say you have to "reach" the run speed on a STR check... what's the DC? Is that set by the DM or is there a certain expected value? Like if you want to go for a Run x5, what do you need to beat.
I'm assuming, since it's 2e, it's roll under attribute, with the penalty actually being added to the roll...
Quote from: Opaopajr on February 27, 2021, 12:43:41 AM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on February 26, 2021, 12:18:00 AM
:0
What's the STR/CON checks for how 2e handles it? If there's a way to do it in 5e without it turning into a slog then I'm game.
I thought OD&D was the one that mainly did retreats, where you run blindly through different hallways and might be doomed.
AD&D 2e, PHB, Time and Movement chapter, p. 120 (earliest printing). It's an Optional Rule in a blue box. :)
By core rules Human MV is typically 12, which is x10 in feet indoors, and x10 in yards outdoors.
You can go up to 5x your MV: 1x is basic Move (as above), 2x is Jog and freely available without STR/CON checks. 3x 4x and 5x are all Run and require STR/CON checks.
Run 3x is STR check (no add'l mods) to reach, and CON check -1 cumulative each round (e.g. 1st rd is -1, 2nd rd is -2, 3rd rd is -3, etc.).
Run 4x is STR check -4 to reach, and CON check -2 cumulative each round (e.g. 1st rd is -2, 2nd rd is -4, 3rd rd is -6, etc.).
Run 5x is STR check -8 to reach, and CON check -3 cumulative each round (e.g. 1st rd is -3, 2nd rd is -6, 3rd rd is -9, etc.).
...snippage...
Wow. I played 2E for a decade and didn't know that was even in there. I didn't actually believe you until I checked my book. How does that happen?
:) I am glad you guys like it! I hope it helps.
There are a lot of tidbits in the old systems (and in even some of the new ones!) that tend to get lost in the shuffle. I recommend going back and giving a thorough read to your systems from cover to cover, not just D&D either. You will be surrprised how much we assume from received information from learning play through others versus the actual text and author dialog. There are some great nuggets to find with patience! :D
(answering mAcular: Yes, handled within Combat, where Rounds equal 1 minute. So people can go crazy in combat, declare what they wish and go!
I have ran simultaneous chases, hiding, melee ranged and wrestling fighting, magic casting, and parley all within the same 2e Combat. TSR D&D by being less exception-based rules involved mercifully fades back amid such activity. My best advice is adjust your Initiative Rules towards "Group Initiative Roll, Group Modifier" as that handles large battles and complications better; "Individual Initiative Roll, Individual Modifier" tends to work better for very small numbers, like duels or one-on-one chases, hide-and-seeks.
Stat checks tend to be Roll Under, and are as well with this Optional Rule. )
When someone has to "rest" on a failed CON check, what does that mean? Do they just have to stop moving? Can they still fight? Imagine a monster is behind them and they failed the CON check and it's going to reach them now. What can they do? Or are they basically useless?
And how many combat turns pass while they rest, in comparison? Like, do they only have to weather 1 turn of attacks, or 10?
A failed cumulative CON check means that they are exhausted and have to stop their current Run for next Round and Rest for One Turn (a Turn is Ten Rounds, a Round is One Minute. Thus a Turn is Ten Minutes).
As for what that means is up to you the GM! Personally I would leave it as the text and have it limit when you can start up another Run or Jog. Which means you can still fight, move (x1) ... you just cannot Jog or Run. But you do you!
Same applies to Jog. You can Jog for Rounds = CON without CON check. Once you go over you have a CON check (no mod). If you fail you rest for Rounds equal to Rounds You Jogged.
If you notice that actually makes the chase game more interesting! You can be in a Run and as you pass your cumulative CON check you then may choose to drop out of your Run in the next Round Declaration into a regular Walk or Jog. Depending on how much Jog Rounds you have left, you might be able to stop or risk starting back up into the same Run speed without exhausted resting. 8)
example:
Bob has STR 10, CON 10. Bob is trying to get away. Bob tries for Run x3 (STR check no mod). Success! Bob Runs for 3 rounds (= three minutes). Bob succeeds CON check at -1, -2, and -3.
Not wanting to push his luck and wanting to see what's going on, Bob declares for Round 4 to Jog and double back to spy on the fate of his pursuers. Bob Jogs back for 5 Rounds (= five minutes) without issue. Bob sees that his pursuers have captured his buddies -- and just spotted him too! On Round 9 Bob declares Run x4 (STR -4, roll 6 or below)!
Bob fails, he cannot attempt Run x4 again this run, so he maintains his Jog for this round and u-turns to get away. Bob has used 6 of his 10 Jog rounds, and might need them soon! On Round 10 Bob tries for Run x3 again (he succeeded last time so he is not barred from doing it again this run).
He succeeds! Bob runs at Run x3 another two rounds, passing his CON -1, CON -2, and CON -3 checks. He hears whistling from his pursuers, warning other guards to be on the lookout for runners, which is echoed directly ahead by responding guard whistles. Fearing he might have to fight, or climb, or hide, Bob does not want to be caught exhausted. On Round 13 Bob declares to Walk again, ending his run and trying to blend in with crowds.
This Walking requires no rolls to succeed, auto-success. Further, since there is no failed CON check there is no exhaustion requiring rest for one turn (ten minutes) for a failed Run. (And since this Jog was not over 10 rounds, Bob's CON, there is no failed Jog CON check to worry about.) Also, since Bob's Run and Jog has been ended normally he is still in condition to Run again anew if spotted and pursued, even try for Run x4 again, because it would be a brand new Jog & Run cycle.
For Round 14 Bob is debating between an alleyway to climb a building, a shop to hide, or drawing up his hood to risk threading the needle of alert guards further up the crowd and then making another break for it...
Basically this gives a complex 15 minutes chase scene with meaningful choices throughout. When to use your Jog rounds, when to shoot for a Run, and how hard of a Run? When to quit before you're exhausted? Do you want or need to juggle a bit of both, to keep moving from Run to Jog and back?
It's an optional rule to help you think about movement dynamically without being too heavily involved.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 23, 2021, 05:01:28 PM
In my experience, it tends to be all or nothing. Few times will the party leave a downed party member behind, and retrieving a downed party member contributes to the death spiral they're already dealing with. So retreat tends to be all or nothing, and usually at the start of an encounter when the character all have a chance of getting away sucessfully.
So, how do you handle retreat? Do you?
Thinking about this question I realised that retreats of various kinds happen very often in my games, both the ones I run and also the ones in which I am a player. This is not surprising.
Retreating is an absolute staple of adventure of all kinds, pulp fiction, fantasy and scifi. Be it Han Solo fleeing from Strom Troopers in the Death Star or the Fellowship of the Ring fleeing through Moria from the Balrog. I would suggest then that as a GM if you aren't consciously incorporating them into your game you are perhaps missing a trick.
In gaming terms, I would say there are two main flavours of retreat. These are the Rout and the Escape.
The Rout occurs when the players ideally don't want to leave combat but due to circumstances, (generally losing) one or more of them realises they need to leave or they are going to die.
The Escape occurs when the players may or may not have completed their goal but fleeing is obviously the new priority and there is no question amongst the (sane) members of the group. For example, fleeing a lava flow or a cave in.
Of course, the Rout and the Escape can occur at the same time (a Player's action removes a supporting wall in a castle for example).
The RoutHandling the Rout depends heavily on the type of game you are running and the player characters involved. For example, if the group is prepared for a TPK or at least some party deaths. Some players may feel the need to hold off pursing enemies and go down fighting.
With regard to fleeing it is worth noting that in some systems the movement rules are different if a character is literally just sprinting away heedless of their surroundings compared to moving tactically in a normal combat round.
It is also worth considering what any enemies are doing. Are they happy to have driven off the intruders and in fact aren't pursuing? Were they expecting a pursuit and have plans in place for the eventuality (perhaps dropping portcullis or sounding alarm bells)?
What happens if the players are caught? Most enemies will simply continue to attack but in other scenarios there may be a different outcome. City Watch may seek to arrest criminal players for example. If the enemies are not pursuing what are they doing? Looting or eating the bodies of fallen heroes, summoning reinforcements? Shoring up their defences for a counter attack? In my experience the reaction of the enemies is the main determining factor in whether a TPK will result.
In any case once combat completely degenerates into fleeing I believe the Rout is best determined in an abstract narrative way rather than strictly adhereing to the mechanics of movement. Rather than a static movement value to determine success use Stats and skills like Athletics, Dexterity or Talents like Fleet Footed and Swift Stride. Differences in movement can be used to grant bonuses to rolls. Inaddition to emphasise the variety of skill sets being used as well I add in obstacles. These can be as simple as tripping over tree roots to jumping past closing doors. Failing a roll doesn't necessarily mean the player is caught but it might mean a penalty to a next roll or taking some damage from an opponent on their heels.
For a group of four or five players I would suggest between 5-11 obstacles split between the party some of which may overlap but they shouldn't all be the same. Also don't be afraid of having the fastest (or first) to leave essentially be able to avoid any obstacles and get clear without any rolls. This can demonstrate the obvious advantage of cowardice!
Finally, as a GM it is worth having an end point for the Rout. At what point are the players safe. You don't need to explicitly tell the players this and indeed within reason concealing this can lead to some amusing (and perhaps realistic) outcomes with the players fleeing far further and farther than necessary.
The EscapeThe Escape is mechanically rather similar to the Rout with the exception that for narrative reasons the danger not fleeing presents is often obviously grave and hence needs to be handled with care.
For example in a Rout having been beaten by a tribe of orcs a party flees. If one of their number is caught and as a GM you are being merciful it is easy enough to simply say the party member is captured and dragged back to the orc warlord for interrogation. By comparison in an Escape the group is more likely facing something along the lines of an avalanche or lava flow which cannot be easily survived without breaking the verisimilitude of the game. In this case I would suggest making it clear to the players that the main danger will kill them but mechanically make it quite easy to avoid if they keep moving. However, the obstacles the players face are of a collateral nature linked to the main threat.
For example, recently my group fled a cave being used by the vile ratmen for foul ceremonies to their dark god. The cave was closing in around them, its sealing induced by a spell from the Skaven Grey Seer. The players fled. I determined it was unlikely the players would be sealed in if they kept moving but they did have to contend with a barrage of falling stones and some took damage on the way out. In addition, saving their NPC comrades was less certain.
Similar to the Rout as a GM have a clear point where the players are safe. Unlike the Rout it is generally more dramatic when the players can see safety in sight and can heroically make a final push for it.
Something to consider is that some scenarios naturally lend themselves to Retreating. These are all scenarios I have run that I knew ahead of time would have a Retreat involved.
Warhammer 40K - Deathwatch: Space Marines planting a nuke on a derelict space station full of alien monstrosities.
Warhammer 40K – Dark Heresy: The Acolyte cell fleeing from cultists who had attacked the hotel during the mission briefing!
WFRP: Fleeing a Skaven temple that was caving in (as noted above).
WFRP – The Empire in Flames: Fleeing a Chaos portal that has just opened
Pendragon – Once and Future King: Players are Varangian Guards fleeing from a castle after having robbed the Imperial treasury as the demonic spirit of the Euphrates is unleashed and Saracens attack (it makes more sense in context).
Pendragon – Once and Future King: Calmly retreating in good order after negotiating with some Welsh raiders, both sides having taken casualties (this one is border line a RP solution rather than full retreating but there was a lot of anxiety over a double cross that the players wanted to leave quickly).
Legend of the Five Rings: Fleeing with an Imperial child from a far superior evil monk that is planning to kill said Imperial child.
Numenera: Fleeing from Sathosh raiders, through a fortress experiencing both a spatial and temporal collapse and into a time portal...
Finally, my all time favourite (unplanned) retreat happened in a Dark Heresy game when a player character picked a fight with a group of wasteland savages. The rest of the group backed him and squared up to the wastelanders. First round of combat the player character who had initiated the fight fled. The character proceeded to run a large arc around the border of the combat area. When it was clear the fight had been won the player character returned and finished off the leader of the wasteland savages. Needless to say, as GM I found this amusing. The PCs own group less so.
For us (2e ish)
4. Flee
Flee: Move away at ≤ full movement with a –2 initiative modifier, providing the opponent a free melee attack with a +4 bonus To Hit but no movement. If a fleeing character wins Initiative, they can increase the distance from pursuers by an additional 1" × their Initiative once every turn.
The +4 bonus To Hit incorporates the +2 rear bonus and the +2 stun bonus as they turn to flee.
Scenario: Defender and Pursuer are in melee range (1").
Defender decides to flee: ( d10 [Base Initiative] – 2 [Flee modifier] ).
Pursuer decides to attack: ( d10 [Base Initiative] + [Weapon Speed] ).
Flee Scenario 4a: Pursuer Wins Initiative
Pursuer attacks. Defender moves away (up to full movement). Pursuer makes a free attack on Defender Initiative with a +4 flee bonus To Hit, but cannot respond otherwise (having acted on Initiative).
Flee Scenario 4b: Defender Wins Initiative
Defender moves away (up to full movement + Initiative). Pursuer makes an immediate free attack with a +4 flee bonus To Hit. If Pursuer wields a melee weapon usable at range (e.g., dagger), Pursuer can ranged attack on Initiative with a +2 rear bonus To Hit but penalized by the distance on Initiative (–2 To Hit for medium range, –5 To Hit for long range).
• If Pursuer Base Initiative > Defender Initiative, Pursuer can Change Action1 at Base Initiative, and pursue Defender (up to full movement) on revised Initiative: ([Base Initiative] + d10 [new Initiative roll] + 2 [Change modifier] + 8 [Full Movement modifier] ). If revised Initiative is > 20, movement will occur the next round on Initiative –20; must move towards Defender.
• If Pursuer Base Initiative ≤ Defender Initiative, Pursuer cannot Change Action, but could melee with a different opponent within 1".
1Pursuer cannot Change Action to Charge, as they are considered engaged for the round.
5. Pursuit
If the fleeing character wins Initiative, they can increase the distance from pursuers by an additional 1" × their Initiative once every turn they flee. If the pursuer begins the round in melee range and attacks, combat is resolved as if their opponent is fleeing. If the fleeing character is out of visual range, or in an area of "difficult" terrain, a check is made to see if evasion is successful.
Pursuit Scenario 5a: Pursuit
Evader moved the prior round, Pursuer is in pursuit.
Both decide to continue to move: ( d10 [Initiative] + 8 [Move > ½ modifier] ).
Evader moves on Initiative. Once per 10 rounds, Evader can move an additional 1" × Initiative if they won Initiative. Pursuer moves to Evader on Initiative, and completes round (limited to full movement) adjacent to Evader.
Note: If Evader wins Initiative, and turns corners on Initiative, they are out of sight of Pursuer—Pursuer will not know the direction!
Pursuit Scenario 5b: Pursuer Stops and Attacks
Evader moved the prior round, Pursuer is in pursuit within 1".
Pursuer decides to attack instead of pursue: ( d10 [Initiative] + [Weapon Speed modifier] ).
Evader decides to continue to flee: ( d10 [Initiative] – 2 [Flee modifier] ).
• If Pursuer wins Initiative, Pursuer attacks (with a +2 rear bonus To Hit). On Evader Initiative, Pursuer gains a free attack with a +4 flee bonus To Hit, but cannot move.
• If Pursuer loses Initiative, when Evader moves Pursuer gains an immediate free attack with a +4 flee bonus To Hit but cannot move. If Pursuer wields a melee weapon usable at range (e.g., hand axe), Pursuer can ranged attack with a +2 rear bonus To Hit but penalized by the distance on Initiative (–2 To Hit for medium range, –5 To Hit for long range).
6. Withdraw
Withdraw/Falling Back: Backing away from opponent at ⅓ Movement, still in melee if pursued.
Scenario: Defender decides to Withdraw: ( d10 [Base Initiative] + 4 [ Move ≤ ½ modifier] ).
Pursuer decides to attack: ( d10 [Base Initiative] + [Weapon Speed modifier] ).
• If Pursuer wins Initiative, Pursuer attacks. Defender withdraws up to ⅓ Movement. Pursuer can immediately follow (up to full movement); Defender attacks on Initiative if Pursuer follows and is within 1".
• If Defender wins Initiative, Defender withdraws up to ⅓ Movement. If Pursuer follows on Initiative (up to full movement), Defender and then Pursuer attack if within 1".