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Author Topic: How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?  (Read 6545 times)

robiswrong

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How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2018, 04:56:54 PM »
Quote from: tenbones;1061014
I have no evidence that easy-mode keeps players playing longer. I have a lot of evidence that hard-mode does. As I have three groups of different players that I now have been GMing for *multiple* decades with some filtering in and out at various points (thanks technology!). And the GM's in these groups all do it a little different - but are in it for the same reasons and have the same goals.

I'd agree with that.

But there's a difference between how to keep people involved, and how to get them involved.  That's the whole thing with player acquisition - what are the needs of new players, and how can you meet them, while over time providing for the needs of long-term players?  Are long term players willing to heavily commit time and schedule to play a game, because to them, the rewards are worth it?  Of course they are, and do.

But if you take a new player, and have this conversation:

Player: "I wanna play D&D, mind if I come?"
GM: "Sure!  It's four hours every Saturday, and you're expected to be there no matter what.  We'll see you then!"
Player: "But... I don't even know if I like it yet...."

... do you think that player is going to play?

You play WoW.  Great.  I'm in the MMO business myself.  What time commitment does being in your raiding guild have?  Is that the time commitment you started with on your first MMO?  I'm willing to bet it's not.

SHARK

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How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2018, 05:16:20 PM »
Quote from: tenbones;1061014
That's funny. I detest LFR/LFG because the quality of the players in pick-up groups/raids *blows*. I play to do "hard" content (it's an MMO kids, nothing is hard - but tell that to casual players that dick around and want to only press random buttons for "fun" and you'll get verbally abused) , with other people that want that same challenge.

This is analogous to TTRPG players that want to join my campaigns but only want to play one-shots and/or can only commit to a single four-hour session per month. Nope - I play weekly. I play for a minimum of 8-hrs in a stretch. I run campaigns that aim for years in length. But aside from the inevitable sensitive male-feminist that found my games "too intense" my general method has good results.




Raiding Guilds in WoW are exactly like *good* gaming groups. They require cultivation and commitment. I'm of the mind that this problem of "Attracting Casual Gamers" is one that isn't a problem at all. It's the natural order of things when it comes to group-activities. It requires people of like-mind and like desire to want high-quality things. I can spend 4-minutes grinding and brewing the best coffee in the world or I can stare at my phone while a Keurig K-Cup shits out crappy coffee in less than 1-minute, that someone who is actively un-invested in coffee, out of general ignorance or discernment, and fulfill the same perceived need.

They are not necessarily the same. Just like because you get three friends to film you babbling into your mic isn't the same thing as actual musicians getting together to make Van Halen in the garage (nevermind that they're AWESOME players in general). They require different things for different reasons. One is *easier* than the other. One is more convenient than the other. One is far more prone to crash than that other. But only one of these is capable of achieving certain qualities that the other simply, mechanically, cannot.

I have no evidence that easy-mode keeps players playing longer. I have a lot of evidence that hard-mode does. As I have three groups of different players that I now have been GMing for *multiple* decades with some filtering in and out at various points (thanks technology!). And the GM's in these groups all do it a little different - but are in it for the same reasons and have the same goals.

My only reliable answer to this is: Become a good GM. Run good games. Do epic stuff organically - not because a module spells it out for you. Make epic players that want to do epic stuff - even if it's low-key. They will become Epic GM's.




Yep. And they have to make the same decisions everyone else does with their hobbies. Go big or go home. I choose to go big. Most people that dabble in TTRPG's do what you're currently doing with video-games... it's sliding off their radar of importance *because* they've never gotten the Itch that TTRPG's gave you. That doesn't happen from no-where. That's not going to happen because you ran through a sad-sack session of Adventure League's "Dungeon of the Mad Mage". It happens when you play that game that rocks your world. Challenges your assumptions about what the game can be. You need a GM that has a D.O.N.G. Blackbelt that wants their games to get "there" and stay "there". It becomes the Unscratchable Itch.

It's the Surfer's "Stoke". It's the "Zone". To bring people into gaming and keep them there - they need to touch this or they'll dwindle away. For most people, I think this is okay - because they probably are not that invested anyhow which is how most people approach their lives in one form or another. The key is finding those that want to be invested.

TTRPG's for me is like other people's Softball League. Bowling. Competitive Hula-hooping. I take it as my serious entertainment hobby. My wife and children all understand this - because I've made it clear, it's part of my life. I make zero apologies for it. When I'm placed into cryonic suspension my dice will be floating around -320F (-195C) with me.

Greetings!

Totally spot on, Tenbones! PREACH ON, BROTHER!!! Wow, you and I totally agree on this. It's fun and surprising a bit too to find people that think the *exact* same lines of thought you have, you know? lol. Damn, brilliant, my friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Ratman_tf

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How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2018, 05:44:21 PM »
Quote from: robiswrong;1061060
But if you take a new player, and have this conversation:

Player: "I wanna play D&D, mind if I come?"
GM: "Sure!  It's four hours every Saturday, and you're expected to be there no matter what.  We'll see you then!"
Player: "But... I don't even know if I like it yet...."

Is this common? In even the most hardcore groups I've never seen someone threatened to show up. Most make concessions for important events, being sick, work, etc, etc, etc...
I'm sure there's some nuts out there who expect someone to show up for a game night the same day their grandmother died, but I'm willing to bet they're rare.

In the meanwhile, a campaign is a time commitment. I have a silly joke I make from time to time when someone flakes on a gaming session, I say they're "Washing their owl." as a comment on people who make a time commitment and then don't show. It's not the end of the world, and sometimes people just don't feel like leaving the comfortable womb of their home. I understand, I feel that way often myself.
But that still doesn't change that gaming is a time commitment, and there's no way to get around that. I mean, what are we aiming for here? Some way to play RPGs without playing them? :confused:
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jeff37923

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How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2018, 05:47:55 PM »
Quote from: tenbones;1061014
That's funny. I detest LFR/LFG because the quality of the players in pick-up groups/raids *blows*. I play to do "hard" content (it's an MMO kids, nothing is hard - but tell that to casual players that dick around and want to only press random buttons for "fun" and you'll get verbally abused) , with other people that want that same challenge.

This is analogous to TTRPG players that want to join my campaigns but only want to play one-shots and/or can only commit to a single four-hour session per month. Nope - I play weekly. I play for a minimum of 8-hrs in a stretch. I run campaigns that aim for years in length. But aside from the inevitable sensitive male-feminist that found my games "too intense" my general method has good results.




Raiding Guilds in WoW are exactly like *good* gaming groups. They require cultivation and commitment. I'm of the mind that this problem of "Attracting Casual Gamers" is one that isn't a problem at all. It's the natural order of things when it comes to group-activities. It requires people of like-mind and like desire to want high-quality things. I can spend 4-minutes grinding and brewing the best coffee in the world or I can stare at my phone while a Keurig K-Cup shits out crappy coffee in less than 1-minute, that someone who is actively un-invested in coffee, out of general ignorance or discernment, and fulfill the same perceived need.

They are not necessarily the same. Just like because you get three friends to film you babbling into your mic isn't the same thing as actual musicians getting together to make Van Halen in the garage (nevermind that they're AWESOME players in general). They require different things for different reasons. One is *easier* than the other. One is more convenient than the other. One is far more prone to crash than that other. But only one of these is capable of achieving certain qualities that the other simply, mechanically, cannot.

I have no evidence that easy-mode keeps players playing longer. I have a lot of evidence that hard-mode does. As I have three groups of different players that I now have been GMing for *multiple* decades with some filtering in and out at various points (thanks technology!). And the GM's in these groups all do it a little different - but are in it for the same reasons and have the same goals.

My only reliable answer to this is: Become a good GM. Run good games. Do epic stuff organically - not because a module spells it out for you. Make epic players that want to do epic stuff - even if it's low-key. They will become Epic GM's.




Yep. And they have to make the same decisions everyone else does with their hobbies. Go big or go home. I choose to go big. Most people that dabble in TTRPG's do what you're currently doing with video-games... it's sliding off their radar of importance *because* they've never gotten the Itch that TTRPG's gave you. That doesn't happen from no-where. That's not going to happen because you ran through a sad-sack session of Adventure League's "Dungeon of the Mad Mage". It happens when you play that game that rocks your world. Challenges your assumptions about what the game can be. You need a GM that has a D.O.N.G. Blackbelt that wants their games to get "there" and stay "there". It becomes the Unscratchable Itch.

It's the Surfer's "Stoke". It's the "Zone". To bring people into gaming and keep them there - they need to touch this or they'll dwindle away. For most people, I think this is okay - because they probably are not that invested anyhow which is how most people approach their lives in one form or another. The key is finding those that want to be invested.

TTRPG's for me is like other people's Softball League. Bowling. Competitive Hula-hooping. I take it as my serious entertainment hobby. My wife and children all understand this - because I've made it clear, it's part of my life. I make zero apologies for it. When I'm placed into cryonic suspension my dice will be floating around -320F (-195C) with me.

I believe like you do about this, but people still have to start somewhere in order to know that they have the same itch for something more. From reading the above, would you suggest poaching players from Organized Play games?
"Meh."

Haffrung

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How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2018, 05:52:12 PM »
We don't need to attract more casuals to play RPGs. The hobby is booming. Today, in 2018, D&D has as wide a reach as it has ever had. Tabletop gaming is several years into a popularity explosion. It has never been easier to learn about D&D or to find a group.

Where we do need more work is in making it easier for DMs. D&D 5E is still a relatively complex game - more complex than 90 per cent of boardgames. And from what I've seen of the boom we're experiencing, most new players are not especially interested in the mechanics. They'll roll the type of dice you tell them, and mark off the numbers on their character sheet. But they aren't taking the books home and reading them. They aren't digging into the tactical actions available in combat, or brushing up on spells and feats.

That leaves all that work, the management of the mechanics at the table, up to the DM. And in many cases, these DMs are new themselves. So not only do they need to learn a complex game, prepare for the adventure, run all the NPCs, do their dramatic voices, and run the session, they have to babysit half the players at the table.

WotC could make things a lot easier. They could condense the mechanics of the game onto 2 page summary sheets. They could offer all kinds of play aids around running combat, levelling up, and running encounters. But for reasons which I don't really understand, they don't. Play aids are like a blind spot in RPG publishing.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 05:55:12 PM by Haffrung »
 

Ratman_tf

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How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2018, 05:56:24 PM »
Quote from: Haffrung;1061071
WotC could make things a lot easier. They could condense the mechanics of the game onto 2 page summary sheets. They could offer all kinds of play aids around running combat, levelling up, and running encounters. But for reasons which I don't really understand, they don't. Play aids are like a blind spot in RPG publishing.

It seems ever since Pathfinder/4th ed, there has been a lot of play aids. Combat tracker sheets, condition cards, etc.
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EOTB

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How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2018, 06:09:55 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1061068
Is this common? In even the most hardcore groups I've never seen someone threatened to show up. Most make concessions for important events, being sick, work, etc, etc, etc...
I'm sure there's some nuts out there who expect someone to show up for a game night the same day their grandmother died, but I'm willing to bet they're rare.

In the meanwhile, a campaign is a time commitment. I have a silly joke I make from time to time when someone flakes on a gaming session, I say they're "Washing their owl." as a comment on people who make a time commitment and then don't show. It's not the end of the world, and sometimes people just don't feel like leaving the comfortable womb of their home. I understand, I feel that way often myself.
But that still doesn't change that gaming is a time commitment, and there's no way to get around that. I mean, what are we aiming for here? Some way to play RPGs without playing them? :confused:


Quote from: Haffrung;1061071
We don't need to attract more casuals to play RPGs.


Very few people go from zero to sixty in 0.1 seconds.  We need casual players, because that's where dedicated players come from.  Almost all of us started with casual play.  You played when mom let you, and not when she didn't.  While that exact stricture doesn't apply anymore, others obligations typically do, and most rational people won't make long-term commitments on a maybe.  

I understand that many DMs aren't interested in casual, drop-in/drop-out campaigns because they don't provide an experience that builds towards something anticipated as easily or assuredly.  But that restricts the hobby to people willing to make it primary in their recreational lives.  You could make playing and running D&D as easy as breathing, but slap a "one night of your life every two weeks" sticker on the front of it, and all that's happened is the exclusion of a lot of people who have full lives.
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Toadmaster

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How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2018, 06:12:07 PM »
Reading through this, I also think there needs to be a distinction between finding casual players and bringing lapsed gamers back into the hobby. They are not the same thing, and treating them as though they are is not likely to work.

Lapsed gamers are quite likely to remain lapsed gamers if casual one shots is their only option. Casual gamers are unlikely to become more serious gamers if they are given a hard sell at their introduction to gaming.

robiswrong

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How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2018, 06:19:50 PM »
Quote from: Toadmaster;1061075
Reading through this, I also think there needs to be a distinction between finding casual players and bringing lapsed gamers back into the hobby. They are not the same thing, and treating them as though they are is not likely to work.

Lapsed gamers are quite likely to remain lapsed gamers if casual one shots is their only option. Casual gamers are unlikely to become more serious gamers if they are given a hard sell at their introduction to gaming.

What we need is variable commitment.  We need structures that allow people to play at the commitment level they're willing to sink into the hobby, and switch that commitment level as their life circumstances change.

If you play hockey, you can play pickup once in a while.  Or you can join a league.  Or you can run a team in a league.  You can drop out and come back in, leave your team after a season and play pick up for a while, or then come back into a league.  You can be in multiple leagues if you want.  You can be on a team that practices.  But you can choose the level of commitment you want to put in the hobby, and get rewards appropriate to that commitment.

That's what the hobby needs, and ideally would have in a way that's easily discernible to people.

trechriron

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« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2018, 06:20:55 PM »
I often feel like tenbones is the Pope of "How I Like to Game" and I should probably order a picture of him, frame it and hang it in the gameroom.

"Who's that?"

"My Pope. He sets the pace. I implement his word."

"I thought this was a gaming group?"

"Maybe... for you..."

Player slowly scoots away towards the door....
Trentin C Bergeron (trechriron)
Bard, Creative & RPG Enthusiast

----------------------------------------------------------------------
D.O.N.G. Black-Belt (Thanks tenbones!)

jeff37923

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How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2018, 06:22:32 PM »
Quote from: Haffrung;1061071
We don't need to attract more casuals to play RPGs. The hobby is booming. Today, in 2018, D&D has as wide a reach as it has ever had. Tabletop gaming is several years into a popularity explosion. It has never been easier to learn about D&D or to find a group.

Where we do need more work is in making it easier for DMs. D&D 5E is still a relatively complex game - more complex than 90 per cent of boardgames. And from what I've seen of the boom we're experiencing, most new players are not especially interested in the mechanics. They'll roll the type of dice you tell them, and mark off the numbers on their character sheet. But they aren't taking the books home and reading them. They aren't digging into the tactical actions available in combat, or brushing up on spells and feats.

That leaves all that work, the management of the mechanics at the table, up to the DM. And in many cases, these DMs are new themselves. So not only do they need to learn a complex game, prepare for the adventure, run all the NPCs, do their dramatic voices, and run the session, they have to babysit half the players at the table.

WotC could make things a lot easier. They could condense the mechanics of the game onto 2 page summary sheets. They could offer all kinds of play aids around running combat, levelling up, and running encounters. But for reasons which I don't really understand, they don't. Play aids are like a blind spot in RPG publishing.


OK, you are concentrating on a single game when there are many more to choose from out there. Yes, D&D is the 800 pound gorilla in the room, but to ignore the rest is to ignore an entire biosphere.
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Ratman_tf

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How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2018, 07:17:24 PM »
Quote from: EOTB;1061074
You could make playing and running D&D as easy as breathing, but slap a "one night of your life every two weeks" sticker on the front of it, and all that's happened is the exclusion of a lot of people who have full lives.

I consider biweekly to be super casual. If a person can't make it every other week, #1. Maybe they have more going on in their lives, and need to prioritize that stuff over pretending to be an elf, and #2. When they can show up, have a pregen/have the DM level up their character/grab an NPC and tag along with the main group for a session.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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Haffrung

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How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2018, 09:21:56 AM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1061090
I consider biweekly to be super casual. If a person can't make it every other week, #1. Maybe they have more going on in their lives, and need to prioritize that stuff over pretending to be an elf, and #2. When they can show up, have a pregen/have the DM level up their character/grab an NPC and tag along with the main group for a session.


How many married people in families where both parents work full-time, raising kids who participate in extra-curricular activities, are in your group? Because that describes 4 of the 6 people in my group, including myself. Consequently, even with quorum set as DM + 4 players, we find it difficult to meet even twice a month. With commutes, players scattered across a 825 km/2 city, weekday kids' activities, and some early morning work shifts, weeknights are impossible. Even Friday nights are difficult. Most of us do family stuff during the day on weekends, so that leaves Sat nights. One player is in a hockey league. Another has season's tickets to lacrosse. Another runs his own business. We have partners and active social lives outside gaming, so we go out to restaurants and bars, host parties, have BBQs etc. on the weekend. Then there are family commitments with parents and siblings - birthday parties, holidays, dinners.

We all try to make D&D a priority in our lives. And we prefer ongoing campaigns. But we simply can't manage to coordinate more than 1 or 2 sessions a month. That's just reality for a lot of gamers who have families today.
 

S'mon

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« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2018, 09:40:51 AM »
Quote from: Haffrung;1061149
How many married people in families where both parents work full-time, raising kids who participate in extra-curricular activities, are in your group? Because that describes 4 of the 6 people in my group, including myself. Consequently, even with quorum set as DM + 4 players, we find it difficult to meet even twice a month. With commutes, players scattered across a 825 km/2 city, weekday kids' activities, and some early morning work shifts, weeknights are impossible. Even Friday nights are difficult. Most of us do family stuff during the day on weekends, so that leaves Sat nights. One player is in a hockey league. Another has season's tickets to lacrosse. Another runs his own business. We have partners and active social lives outside gaming, so we go out to restaurants and bars, host parties, have BBQs etc. on the weekend. Then there are family commitments with parents and siblings - birthday parties, holidays, dinners.

We all try to make D&D a priority in our lives...


It doesn't sound like you try very hard. :p

Edit: Personally these days I prefer to run open campaigns where people just turn up when they can; I don't expect a high level of commitment - except from me. But I can run games every week because I make it a priority.

Ratman_tf

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How Do We Attract Casual Players and Lapsed Players To Tabletop RPGs?
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2018, 01:08:58 PM »
Quote from: Haffrung;1061149
How many married people in families where both parents work full-time, raising kids who participate in extra-curricular activities, are in your group? Because that describes 4 of the 6 people in my group, including myself. Consequently, even with quorum set as DM + 4 players, we find it difficult to meet even twice a month. With commutes, players scattered across a 825 km/2 city, weekday kids' activities, and some early morning work shifts, weeknights are impossible. Even Friday nights are difficult. Most of us do family stuff during the day on weekends, so that leaves Sat nights. One player is in a hockey league. Another has season's tickets to lacrosse. Another runs his own business. We have partners and active social lives outside gaming, so we go out to restaurants and bars, host parties, have BBQs etc. on the weekend. Then there are family commitments with parents and siblings - birthday parties, holidays, dinners.

#1. Maybe they have more going on in their lives, and need to prioritize that stuff over pretending to be an elf,

Quote
We all try to make D&D a priority in our lives. And we prefer ongoing campaigns. But we simply can't manage to coordinate more than 1 or 2 sessions a month. That's just reality for a lot of gamers who have families today.

Then play that much. When someone I game with has a kid, we usually say bye-bye to them for a while. It takes a lot of time to take care of kids, and family is more important than games.
Sometimes they get a break and show up to game, and that's great.

#2. When they can show up, have a pregen/have the DM level up their character/grab an NPC and tag along with the main group for a session.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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