I think the most plausible kind of alternate history is like the Mazes & Minotaurs conceit: had the first RPG to catch on been different, it would still have been the trend setter -- and it would still have been tough for any rival to come close (never mind overtake) it in its "home field."

The thing that could have led to D&D being published but another RPG becoming dominant would have been for TSR to go out of business before 1977. Say they got smacked with a lawsuit from the Tolkien estate over hobbits and another from the Burroughs estate over Warriors of Mars before the end of 1974, and couldn't sell either their stock of D&D or of WoM, and then Don Kaye passes away in 1975. TSR might be under enough strain and debt that they have to go out of business.

At this point I think Tunnels & Trolls would have become the dominant game (at first). It would hit immediately after TSR implodes and have a similar system but simpler and easier for newbies. Polyhedral dice would be a running controversy, since T&T doesn't use them. The dominance might not last since T&T has a lot of silliness.

Runequest might be totally different if most circles play T&T instead of D&D. Greyhawk never comes out in this hypothetical, so the thief skills that inspired the percentile systems don't exist. But it would have a shot at dethroning T&T among serious gamers as a more "advanced" system.

Quote from: Cadriel;685669Runequest might be totally different if most circles play T&T instead of D&D. Greyhawk never comes out in this hypothetical, so the thief skills that inspired the percentile systems don't exist. But it would have a shot at dethroning T&T among serious gamers as a more "advanced" system.

What would be the likelihood of somebody else independently coming up with a percentile system?

Quote from: estar;685651I wrote RPG alt-history myself in response to the question whether RPGs could have arose earlier.

Part I
Part II

The basic gist is that RPGs rose out of a writers aide for writing Science Fiction in the late 30s and 40s. The initial writers aide used random tables which made people realize that it could be used for a game.

That's a fun little alt-history. There could be different ways, as you say. IIRC, Greg Stafford was doodling Gloranthan stories in class in the late 60s. Say he had met Steve Perrin around that time and various SCA types. Stafford was getting into boardgames, the west coast counter-culture was all into the hobbit, the SCA and Perrin were all about simulation. Easy to see how someone might say, hey lets make something like a boardgame where you play a single hero and fight monsters. Stafford would produce the imaginary framework so that it doesn't look like a total LotR rip-off. The brave Sartarite rebels would seem anti-authority.

You probably get characters who, like mythical heroes, can still be laid low by a single blow but get gifts from gods. You get the 'mundane' simulationism in which no one is ever immune to a dagger in the back and a sense that anyone can achieve greatness.

At the height of Vietnam you get the odd coincidence where the troops in Vietnam start playing this weird game which goes through them like wildfire. A few joints, some weird dice and a lot of imagination. At the same time, you get all the west coast students playing in the first published world, Glorantha, where they struggle against oppression and then turning up on demos with "Argrath Lives" and "We Are All Us" t-shirts. Then there's a backlash. Greg Stafford's quote about "real life magic" is taken to mean eek Satanism and the army bans it from being played. Someone claims that a bunch of kids went out into the wilderness to play it and one died when they got lost.

It's actually fairly easy to imagine. Chaosium end up renaming themselves when they start getting pressure from media who claim the name refers to black "chaos" magic. Lovecraft Adventures is renamed Call of Cthulhu when another media outlet claims it's about ponography. They buy Dragonquest and then Dungeons and Dragons to publish them with amazing production values but never really follow through.

At the same time, the whole computer libertarian movement starts obsessing about writing code to create RQ characters and small mazes called RnQ (pronounced rink). Hackers also found ways of represent runes on CRTs leading to a second satanic panic when the chaos rune was said to be horns of the devil.

Admittedly that's just a ten minute thought experiment but it was fun...

Quote from: Phillip;685654I think the most plausible kind of alternate history is like the Mazes & Minotaurs conceit: had the first RPG to catch on been different, it would still have been the trend setter -- and it would still have been tough for any rival to come close (never mind overtake) it in its "home field."

That may well be, RPGs turned out to have a powerful social component and benefit from the network effect. The way to figure out alternatives is to look other situation where there was strong social network around a product.

One thing that comes to mind is that Facebook was not the first Social Network site. Look at why did it beat out its competitors like MySpace? And see if those reason can be applied to the development of RPGs.

Quote from: Cadriel;685669Runequest might be totally different if most circles play T&T instead of D&D. Greyhawk never comes out in this hypothetical, so the thief skills that inspired the percentile systems don't exist. But it would have a shot at dethroning T&T among serious gamers as a more "advanced" system.

Percentiles were known widely in wargaming circles. I don't think in a alt-history where D&D ceased publication early on that the lack of a thief class would be a problem. Also note that the Thief came from West Coast gaming circles and it was just one of many alternatives classes being created and circulated at the time.

Another interesting point in a timeline where D&D falters is what impact does that have on the manufacturing of polyhedral dice? While I don't think it would stunt RPG's growth lack availability would have an impact on what mechanics were commonly used.

Also keep in mind that independently of RPGs there was boom in hex and counter wargames spearheaded by SPI and Avalon Hill. It peaked in 1980.

Quote from: deleriad;685676That's a fun little alt-history. There could be different ways, as you say. IIRC, Greg Stafford was doodling Gloranthan stories in class in the late 60s.

.....

Admittedly that's just a ten minute thought experiment but it was fun...

I feel with the hex and counter wargame boom occurring that it would not be hard for various authors like Stafford, Barker, and Crossby (Glorantha, Tekemul, and Harn) to make the leap into gaming and eventually including a game that focused on individual characters.

In a way that how Glorantha game did develop and how the Fantasy Trip came to be. Both started as wargames and went on to have a true RPG developed.

Also there were hybrid wargames like Lord of the Rings, Swords & Sorcery, and Freedom in the Galaxy that had a strong individual character component.

So in a timeline where D&D faltered, I feel somebody somewhere would have picked up the pieces and continued the development of RPGs.

Quote from: estar;685693Another interesting point in a timeline where D&D falters is what impact does that have on the manufacturing of polyhedral dice? While I don't think it would stunt RPG's growth lack availability would have an impact on what mechanics were commonly used.

What else were polyhedral dice used for back in the 1970's?

What?  This thread is still going? :confused:

Quote from: LordVreeg;682442I greatly enjoy my conversations with you, BTW.

Thanks, man.  I always find your comments interesting, even when I disagree with them.    

Quote from: LordVreeg;682442I also find the magic system better, but still too divided and rigid.  It is here I need to understand more, but the types of magic do not seem to 'talk' to each other at all, seeming to be completely different disciplines.

I'm not sure what is 'rigid' about the magic systems, but with respect to their division, I actually think that this is a feature rather than a bug.  It lets GMs decide which kinds of magic, and how much magic, to include in their worlds.  A world in which all magic comes from the gods would just use Theism, whereas a more 'swords-and-sorcery' flavoured world might permit only Sorcery and Animism.  Etc.  The modularity is great IMO.  And they all seem like they would work well together, if that's what you wanted.

Quote from: Akrasia;685905What?  This thread is still going? :confused:

I'm happy it is. The upswing in RQ talk is coinciding with me getting into RuneQuest, so I'm happy for the crossover.

QuoteI'm not sure what is 'rigid' about the magic systems, but with respect to their division, I actually think that this is a feature rather than a bug.  It lets GMs decide which kinds of magic, and how much magic, to include in their worlds.  A world in which all magic comes from the gods would just use Theism, whereas a more 'swords-and-sorcery' flavoured world might permit only Sorcery and Animism.  Etc.  The modularity is great IMO.  And they all seem like they would work well together, if that's what you wanted.

That was my take, as well. For example, Animism doesn't really jive with how I see magic working in my campaign, so I'm removing it. Theism and Folk Magic, with just a hint of darker Sorcery available at great cost? Yeah, that'll work. I don't want to precisely call it a toolkit, because the individual parts are already built for you, but it's there to be customized.

Quote from: ggroy;685703What else were polyhedral dice used for back in the 1970's?

Various miniature wargames were using percentage chances.

If you had a d20, you had a d10 -- back then, d20 was numbered 0-9 twice -- and if you had d10, you could roll d100. You could also get decimals from a pack of cards, for instance.

Dice other than standard d6 were less common in the boxed boardgame field partly because of the short supply (whereas miniatures gamers would provide their own).

Quote from: ggroy;685703What else were polyhedral dice used for back in the 1970's?

They were a maths teaching tool.

Dave Arneson once held a seminar at Gen Con (late 90s) where he told his view of the RPG history to a room of maybe 20 people. In that he mentioned how they first came across polyhedrals in England. (Or in a school catalog from England?)

QuoteIf you had a d20, you had a d10 -- back then, d20 was numbered 0-9 twice -- and if you had d10, you could roll d100.

I still have a couple of sets like this, and use them frequently. You should see the look on younger player's faces when they see the 0-9 twice numbering and go 'Aw, kewl' (or whatever hip lingo they speak nowadays).