How Deadly Should Combat Be?

Omega · September 27, 2016, 03:29:16 PM

Quote from: rgrove0172;921988Ive played a spread of games where the longevity of PCs varied widely. In some a player had to screw up pretty bad (either tactically or with the dice) to ever get a character killed while in others it seemed almost an assumption that characters would die, maybe several in an adventure, and the quest was the priority over keeping any one personality part of the game. In my most recent RPG purchase the rules call for each new replacement character to be awarded with XP so as to 'keep up' with the luckier ones. Character's HP never really increase and even at high level a mook can take you down with a couple of lucky hits.

So where do you think the balance point is? Are the PCs the heroes that are basically SUPPOSED to live through the adventure except for an unfortunate and unexpected loss or are they disposable?

Depends on the table really. Some players will turn TOON! into a bloodbath, and others will play Nightlife like its a Loony Toons episode.

Player expectation or wants are a big factor. Call of Cthulhu for example gets played deadly or like a murder mystery and everything else depending on whos playing. D&D is another prime example. Pretty much right out the gate people were playing it sometimes radically differently.

Soylent Green · September 27, 2016, 04:07:01 PM

My default speed is games where in combat getting knocked out is pretty easy but getting killed unlikely. I play a lot of superhero games so that principle follows but it is also how the WEG D6 Star Wars. I am not looking for realism, if that were a priority for me I probably would not be playing games featuring with wizards, vampires or space aliens.

Bren · September 27, 2016, 04:23:59 PM

Quote from: Onix;921990Depends on the tone of the game. The tone depends on the feel that the players want.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;921994There is no definitive answer that covers all rpg play. The most important determining factor are the desires of the participants.

Quote from: estar;922004How is this NOT a personal taste question?

The first replies nailed this. But as a bonus we got a nice review of the out of the box degree of deadliness of several rules systems.

Quote from: estar;922004With the state of the RPG hobby in 2016, you have a variety of choices between RPG systems and within RPG systems.

Quote from: Skarg;922037Also I think your higher-level pattern/style of asking for forum consensus about GM control issues is wrong-minded, regardless of the topic. These things are dials with a variety of valid settings. Phrasing questions like there is one best way is baiting a hyperbolic furball.

Yeah, that too.

crkrueger · September 27, 2016, 04:30:35 PM

It seems like the whole point of Symbaroum is the danger of the setting. Forget the clans trying to stop you, forget the myriad of death-dealing flora and fauna, the very ground, water and air itself seems against you. The whole planet might not fit the 40k category of a "Death World" but that forest sure comes close. People going in there might be planning on coming out again, but so did every nameless or famous explorer in our world who never came back.

Playing Symbaroum and pulling punches on death seems like a masturbatory exercise.

rgrove0172 · September 27, 2016, 05:51:52 PM

Quote from: Skarg;922037Obviously, this is a matter of taste and choice. .[/QUOTE

There I some really good stuff in there but also some finger pointing relating to that unfortunate Behind the Curtain thread which should be well behind us. Or at least I think Im detecting that. If not, apologies..if so..ok, point taken. I really do get lots of gamers don't want to be coddled by the GM.

rgrove0172 · September 27, 2016, 05:53:06 PM

Quote from: CRKrueger;922103It seems like the whole point of Symbaroum is the danger of the setting. Forget the clans trying to stop you, forget the myriad of death-dealing flora and fauna, the very ground, water and air itself seems against you. The whole planet might not fit the 40k category of a "Death World" but that forest sure comes close. People going in there might be planning on coming out again, but so did every nameless or famous explorer in our world who never came back.

Playing Symbaroum and pulling punches on death seems like a masturbatory exercise.

I totally agree, and expect this will be an eye opener for my players. I cant imagine trying to soften Symbaroum, its one of the few Dark and Gritty games Ive seen that lives up to the category.

Simlasa · September 27, 2016, 08:22:44 PM

I generally always prefer combat to be deadly... or at least potentially deadly. Combat is only interesting to me if there is significant element of risk, otherwise why bother?
So the question for me is more, how much combat do you like in your game?
My preference for softening a game, making death less frequent, is to make combat less frequent... to always present it as a desperate and final option. To allow for solutions that keep swords in their scabbards. Combat generally isn't the most interesting part of the session... a lot of times it ends up feeling like filler that the GM throws in when they have no interesting ideas.

Larsdangly · September 28, 2016, 09:54:05 AM

I think the main issue is that the game needs to work as a game, whatever its focus/power level/etc. If you can't lose you aren't playing a game - you are telling each other stories (which might be cool, but then what are all the dice for?) or wandering through someone's mental video game with all the cheat codes turned on (which is almost never cool, unless you are as cool as the guys from Monster Factory). If a game is mostly or largely about combat, then combat needs to be deadly. Like, really and often deadly. If combat is window dressing for your game, then it doesn't really matter.

Bren · September 28, 2016, 11:19:02 AM

Quote from: Larsdangly;922262... you are telling each other stories (which might be cool, but then what are all the dice for?

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Ideas?

crkrueger · September 28, 2016, 11:39:19 AM

Quote from: Bren;922274[ATTACH=CONFIG]419[/ATTACH]

Ideas?

It was foretold in the stars that the shepherd born under the sign of the moon shall save the earth from the coming of the Arrow of Discord, a herald signifying the return of the lidless eye...with an iPhone or whatever the hell the back symbol is.

Skarg · September 28, 2016, 11:52:44 AM

Quote from: rgrove0172;922139
Quote from: Skarg;922037Obviously, this is a matter of taste and choice. .[/QUOTE

There I some really good stuff in there but also some finger pointing relating to that unfortunate Behind the Curtain thread which should be well behind us. Or at least I think Im detecting that. If not, apologies..if so..ok, point taken. I really do get lots of gamers don't want to be coddled by the GM.
This forum software doesn't have the post icon for a pointing finger, for some reason.

However, I was pointing to that thread not to be negative towards you, but to point out what I see as a pattern that I think is leading us to be more hyperbolic and defensive and objecting in our replies. If you want more balanced and calm replies, and fewer rants, I suggest wording them so they don't sound like they're asking "what's the right/best way". When you ask something like "How Deadly Should Combat Be?" without acknowledging that there will be a wide range of tastes and answers, then we're going to spend a lot of time just saying there are various valid answers, and when offering what our own tastes are, we may be more inclined to argue with your logic rather than just saying our own.

Anyway, I mean to be helpful and not negative. I don't mind if you want to invite rants, though. It can be fun and cathartic to go off rantingly justifying one's gaming tastes, though it also adds a level of noise and blurs the message. Though too, part of my tastes and feelings about these things tend to come from annoyance in playing games that don't match my taste. e.g. "I just shot that teenage punk in their unarmored head twice with my 9mm! What do you mean they're fully functional and have an unimpaired 90% chance to shoot me right back immediately?"

Bren · September 28, 2016, 12:02:50 PM

Quote from: CRKrueger;922278It was foretold in the stars that the shepherd born under the sign of the moon shall save the earth from the coming of the Arrow of Discord, a herald signifying the return of the lidless eye...with an iPhone or whatever the hell the back symbol is.

Exactly.

And yes that is a dated image of a cell phone. (Leftmost column, middle row)
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Bren · September 28, 2016, 12:05:06 PM

Quote from: Skarg;922281"I just shot that teenage punk in their unarmored head twice with my 9mm! What do you mean they're fully functional and have an unimpaired 90% chance to shoot me right back immediately?"

I guess you shot him right in his mullet or pink Mohawk?

Skarg · September 28, 2016, 12:09:47 PM

Quote from: Bren;922286I guess you shot him right in his mullet or pink Mohawk?

That example actually comes from playing Fallout 3. I met a teenage punk girl turning a corner inside a building and the game went into turn-based mode. I shot her in the head twice and it showed the bullet holes in her skull and flying blood, and her unimpaired chance to immediately shoot me back. That was the beginning of the end of my interest in the game, because of that and because of the annoying to-hit rolls and general lack of seeming to support anything like the tactics I would expect to work. Every fight's gotta be a hitpoint exchange in most CRPGS. Sigh.

Bren · September 28, 2016, 12:21:48 PM

Quote from: Skarg;922289That example actually comes from playing Fallout 3. I met a teenage punk girl turning a corner inside a building and the game went into turn-based mode. I shot her in the head twice and it showed the bullet holes in her skull and flying blood, and her unimpaired chance to immediately shoot me back. That was the beginning of the end of my interest in the game, because of that and because of the annoying to-hit rolls and general lack of seeming to support anything like the tactics I would expect to work. Every fight's gotta be a hitpoint exchange in most CRPGS. Sigh.

One of the things I like about Runequest 1/2/3 was the hit points per hit location. While it was possible to hit someone in RQ without a helmet twice in the head and not render them dead or unconscious it would be pretty unlikely for that to occur to any normal unprotected human and it would be clear that those were grazing 1 or 2 hit point wounds not a couple of frickin' holes in the head. Sigh indeed.