Quote from: Theros on June 17, 2021, 10:09:15 AM
I'm just venting... ain't this website my own personal group therapy session??

We need more scum like this dude on this forum!

Quote from: Theros link=topic=43655.msg1176532#msg1176532
I mean, I guess I am kinda curious about hearing a defense of the OSR, although I don't know if it will change my mind (but who knows?).

I love the OSR. Freaking-mofo-love it.

And I wasn't originally a fan of the idea for EXACTLY your listed reasons, plus some more concerns about how the OSR would drain creativity away from new game development.

Here's where the OSR shines:

1) People like new shit.

I love vintage stuff and new stuff, but most people want new stuff, even if its just the old stuff repackaged.

Publishing houses know this. It's why every decade, they roll out Lovecraft or Conan or Winnie the Pooh with a fresh, new cover.


2) The OSR is really, really freaking creative.

I'd argue the most creative ideas for settings and adventures have come out of the OSR for whatever reason - PERHAPS because of everyone working off a semi-common ruleset that is so minimal.

Wander through the link in this thread. Just tons of creativity.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/mork-borg-free-content-worth-at-look-for-any-fantasy-gamer/

3) The OSR is very actual-play centric.

Most OSR stuff is written to be used swiftly at the table. AKA, its reactionary to the main RPG publishers who make giant pretty books for collectors.

The general concensus among most OSR publishers is even if you don't play the game, you'll get value out of the product at your table. Kevin Crawford of Sine Nomine who made Stars Without Number is probably the champ here. His SWN is the best Traveller supplement in the past 3 decades and his Silent Legions OSR-horror RPG is the best CoC supplement hands down.

Quote from: Theros on June 17, 2021, 09:56:13 AM
The first type of retro-clone also confuses me... if you are going to make a retro-clone that hews as close as possible to a TSR edition of D&D, why not just play a TSR edition of D&D?

It boils down to logistics. I can't publish an adventure or supplement for a TSR edition of D&D without getting an IP lawyer involved to make sure I don't cross the lines of fair use and copyright. Otherwise I exposing myself and my assets.

However luckily there is open content free for anybody to use that happen to contain all the terms and many of the mechanics I need to in order to support a classic edition 'as is', the D20 SRD. However in its original form it hard to use for classic edition because it all wrapped up in 3.X material.

Since you are free to alter the D20 SRD, there is no reason why some enterprising group can't strip out the newer stuff and present it as a reference or even as a RPG very close to a particular classic edition. Which is what happened with the Basic Fantasy RPG.

And if you happen to have some lawyer friends who happened to be roleplayers then you can use IP law in conjunction with the open content to get even closer which is what happened with OSRIC.

And with those out there, people went "Oh shit I see how that can work now." Combined with a preference or love for the classic editions of D&D it lead to what you saw unfold from 2006 onwards. Picking up speed a few years later when it obvious that Wizards wasn't going to sue or C&D these efforts into oblivion.

Because it was built on the open content of the D20 that means most ideas folks had could done in the form they want it done. Provided they were willing to put the time.

Quote from: Theros on June 17, 2021, 09:56:13 AM
The latter is the most egregious to me... I'd rather put a gun in my mouth than sit and listen to someone's long list of house-rules for D&D. Why on earth would I waste time with a retro-clone?

First off the latter is not necessarily a retro-clone which is in its strictest sense a clone of some edition with a different layout or wording. If there are house rules they are kept short and to the minimum because the point of those project is produce a specific edition.

But I think you are referring to works like my own Majestic Fantasy RPG, Blood & Treasure, Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyberboria, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, etc. All of these are their own RPGs that happen to be  compatible with one or more classic edition, my own, Majestic Fantasy RPG is compatible with Swords & Wizardry, Core Rule which is a retro-clone of the 3 LBBs + some rules from the first supplement.

As for why I wrote the Majestic Fantasy RPG, the primary reason that when I try to sell my adventures and setting at a game store or convention, Swords & Wizardry is often not avaliable. The guys at Frog God Games try to help but there is only so much they can do. So I wrote my own set of core rules to sell alongside my adventures and setting supplements. But it not just a reprint of the Swords & Wizardry Core Rules, it also folds in the house rules that I used and refined for the past decade, some of which originated back in the early 80s when I ran AD&D 1e. I had a good response on my blog and various forums post so I felt there would folks interested them.

Also like most of the successful OSR Publisher I am under no illusion that somehow my work is THE version to use. It is a version crafted to fit how I run my campaigns. Released into a niche of the hobby where the norm is to kitbash the rules one uses for a classic edition campaign. Drawing mostly from a specific edition but adding bits and pieces from other editions and other RPGs.

So I deliberately wrote my Basic Rules for the Majestic Fantasy RPG with that in mind. Making sure things were organized in a way that made kitbashing easy. And changes from Swords & Wizardry, Core were mostly additions not modifying core concepts like Armor Class, or Hit Points.

Quote from: Theros on June 17, 2021, 09:56:13 AM
I'm a simple man... I want to play a game that is actually called D&D right there on the cover, not someone's motley collection of heartbreaker house-rules. In general, these retro-clones stink of the idea that "the rules will save you" and that the most entertaining thing about RPGs is the rules themselves, like the rules will give you a good experience.

Sorry but that bullshit, if you want to debate then cite a specific author and a specific set of rules that does this. Just about every OSR Publisher I dealt with is well aware what whatever they do is not like the original including the clones themselves.

Quote from: Theros on June 17, 2021, 09:56:13 AM
That is NOT my experience. In my experience, the only thing fun about an RPG is when it goes off the rails with funny/inappropriate jokes and other immature bullshit. Rules are only necessary to give the impression of a structure, but the memorable parts of a game session is when the structure goes out the window and hilarity and disaster ensue.

Here the thing everybody has different taste. I know for most the response to that is "Of Course" but it one thing to intellectually understand it is another to see actually in action. The OSR as you describe it is exactly what happens when folks are free to share what they like in the form they like. Your ownly effective response is to share what you like in the form you like. If you do that, you will find that there are more than a few folks who feel exactly like you. All thanks to the efficiency of communications over the Internet.

Quote from: Theros on June 17, 2021, 09:56:13 AM
But the original versions have a lot of advantages over retro-clones... they have tons more nostalgia to them; they aren't written in the sterile, clinical style that is popular today; and most of all they are far, far, far more concise. Compare OSE to B/X, for example. The Moldvay Basic rulebook is something like 64 pages and OSE is something like 300 pages.

You are not looking at the history of OSE. It started out not much bigger than B/X and then grew from there. There is a reason why each volume exists in the series and it largely because of feedback the author got. If you don't believe email him and ask.

Quote from: Theros on June 17, 2021, 09:56:13 AM
And that brings up another issue... why is so much of the OSR obsessed with B/X? B/X was not a standalone game, it wasn't a "separate" version of D&D... it was literally around for only a couple years and was replaced by BECMI, which did offer the full game. B/X strikes me as being for people who like shareware versions of software more than the full registered version... why base retro-clones on something that was never the full game in the first place?

The two books of B/X is the closest thing to an ur-D&D that classic edition have. Everything that makes D&D D&D is found in those two books stated in a way that it is close to is simplist form. With B/X as a base for one's campaign it is easy to see how to tack on additional things like the AD&D classes to get the exact form of classic D&D one likes to play. You get this by using the 3 LBBs of OD&D plus supplements but it is not as concise and well organized as B/X.

As for complete, it is rare for campaigns to reach the 12th to 14th level range. Numerous anecdotes from back in the day and the present bears this out.

I get your frustration but for my part, I don't care. I know that sounds callous but I am free to peruse my interests in the classic edition in the manner I best see fit. And I respect the fact that you are free to pursue your interest in your own way. Just I respect the OSRIC folks to do the same, along with James Raggi, the folks at Frog God Games, etc.

The reason for my lengthy reply to make you aware that what you like is out there. Everything you see going on is "In addition to" not "In lieu of".

It sounds like you like a more gonzo style. So I recommend anything by Jeff Rients like his blog or his work Broodmother Skyfortress.
http://jrients.blogspot.com/
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/199568/Broodmother-SkyFortress

I recommend Operation Unfathomable and anything else by the Hydra Cooperative.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/233145/Operation-Unfathomable#:~:text=OPERATION%20UNFATHOMABLE%20is%20a%20108,guessing%20as%20well%20as%20players.

Hope this helps.

Quote from: Spinachcat on June 23, 2021, 10:48:34 PM

Quote from: Theros on June 17, 2021, 10:09:15 AM
I'm just venting... ain't this website my own personal group therapy session??

We need more scum like this dude on this forum!

Quote from: Theros link=topic=43655.msg1176532#msg1176532
I mean, I guess I am kinda curious about hearing a defense of the OSR, although I don't know if it will change my mind (but who knows?).

I love the OSR. Freaking-mofo-love it.

And I wasn't originally a fan of the idea for EXACTLY your listed reasons, plus some more concerns about how the OSR would drain creativity away from new game development.

Here's where the OSR shines:

1) People like new shit.

I love vintage stuff and new stuff, but most people want new stuff, even if its just the old stuff repackaged.

Publishing houses know this. It's why every decade, they roll out Lovecraft or Conan or Winnie the Pooh with a fresh, new cover.


2) The OSR is really, really freaking creative.

I'd argue the most creative ideas for settings and adventures have come out of the OSR for whatever reason - PERHAPS because of everyone working off a semi-common ruleset that is so minimal.

Wander through the link in this thread. Just tons of creativity.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/mork-borg-free-content-worth-at-look-for-any-fantasy-gamer/

3) The OSR is very actual-play centric.

Most OSR stuff is written to be used swiftly at the table. AKA, its reactionary to the main RPG publishers who make giant pretty books for collectors.

The general concensus among most OSR publishers is even if you don't play the game, you'll get value out of the product at your table. Kevin Crawford of Sine Nomine who made Stars Without Number is probably the champ here. His SWN is the best Traveller supplement in the past 3 decades and his Silent Legions OSR-horror RPG is the best CoC supplement hands down.

Yes.  OSR stuff is written to be used.  It's not just a bunch of coffee table books.  It's useful, usable content.