Quote from: Bren;903487A society with an actual functioning aristocracy presumes a lower degree of individualism in the population. Otherwise, either the aristos lose their heads or lots of individualistic peasants with low self control lose theirs. Europe gave us centuries of the latter followed by a decade or so of Madame Guillotine.

What doesn't allow one to run a culture with an aristocracy in a game are players who don't understand how hierarchy works in the real world right now, can't extrapolate from that one jot as to how aristocracy would likely work in a world with greater degrees of hierarchy and lower degrees of individualism, or are unwilling or unable to play a character who isn't some cardboard representation of certain 21st century American norms.

...

Some groups find playing a society with an aristocracy fun. Some groups don't. There is no way to make people who hate it, play it.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;903514What I find interesting is that I've actually had players who would match this description of the never-bow individualist in D&D who then never objected to the rigid class and etiquette structure of Legend of the Five Rings. Something about moving to the 'exotic' context of pseudo-Japan negated their objections. Put them right back in pseudo-Europe and they immediately start dunking noble heads in latrines.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;903480Ignoring the incoming rant, the point was, if you have someone who has a sense of individualism come up against a situation they don't like, the likelihood of them kowtowing to some moron who thinks he's better than you is going to cause a LOT of issues.  Even if the you hold your tongue, they'll know your being insubordinate, simply by your stance and facial expression, and if this particular noble is extra sensitive to that sort non-verbal information, getting tossed out is the least of your problems.

And 'adventuring' types are likely to be seen as provocateurs simple by their nature.  They are not bound by the caste system that everyone else is adhering to.  Most nobility would treat them like bandits, and the peasants would be utterly terrified of them because their lords and masters tell them so.

There has to be a bit of give and take in an RPG, because by sticking to historical accuracy you get some really odd to bad problems, which frankly ends up as unfun for some groups.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;903514What I find interesting is that I've actually had players who would match this description of the never-bow individualist in D&D who then never objected to the rigid class and etiquette structure of Legend of the Five Rings. Something about moving to the 'exotic' context of pseudo-Japan negated their objections. Put them right back in pseudo-Europe and they immediately start dunking noble heads in latrines.

Quote from: Ravenswing;903565Well, I think part of the give-and-take is ditching the automatic presumptions.  People with senses of individualism can react as necessary in the right situations ... especially if they grew up in the culture, where I expect "sense of individualism" means something a great deal different from that of your average 19th century American pioneer.  They also are not each and every one of them lousy actors, and what's born into every aristo is not a natural gift at deciphering body language.  (Indeed, I'd argue rather the opposite, where social inferiors are involved; you don't deign to notice the grimaces and grunts the hoi polloi exhibit any more than you do from your wine goblet.)

Quote from: Ravenswing;903565Cultural referent, I expect: when people think about medieval (European) times, they're locked into a paradigm of Robin Hood and knights errant and bold wanderers doing their own thing, not of obsequious peasants knuckling their foreheads to the quality.

By contrast, our cultural paradigm of Sengoku-era Japan involves stultifying manners and formality, besides which they're all slanty-eyed Asians, not those free and independent Europeans (Just! Like! Us!) who shoot up the Sheriff of Nottingham and quest for the Grail and that sort of noble and honorable thing.

Quote from: dragoner;903586There were constant peasant uprisings, Europe, Japan, where ever.

Quote from: dragoner;903600What's the difference?

Quote from: Bren;903615The gaps when the peasants aren't revolting.

Quote from: Bren;903615The gaps when the peasants aren't revolting.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;903616They're always revolting, the bad teeth, the knobby knees...

Oh wait...

Quote from: dragoner;903618... and those poor aristocrats, just hopping around in bunny suits with chocolate eggs falling out of their asses. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Christopher Brady;903621Was a joke...

Quote from: dragoner;903622Won't anyone think of the poor aristocrats?

Funnily enough (and yes, I know it was a joke), that the nobles of the medieval era had as likely bad of teeth as the peasants. That is without the hereditary periodontal disease that runs in many noble families today.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;903625Believe me, I know where you're coming from.  The issue I was taking was how that if the Lords and Ladies of the land were really as uptight about caste as we've been told, adventurers are pretty much bandits to most people, cuz they didn't fit in.