Quote from: jeff37923;900315You've never been stuck in a room with diehard Gene Roddenberry-was-the-second-coming-of-Christ Trekkies, have you?

[raises hand]

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;900282When people are already agreeing in their groups to engage in such awful imaginary behavior and themes, it seems really peculiar that some people in the group get to draw a line on equally awful imaginary stuff and that we must all be extra-cautiously mindful of it, else be called an insensitive monster. Again, we're murdering and pillaging on a routine basis, ending life and spreading irrecoverable woe, but cross that other line and only then you're an asshole.

I agree with your sentiment, as a broad concept: I reject, somewhat contemptuously, that people are assholes for the themes they choose to include in their games, the reasoning stated above.  Heck, in a similar discussion on TBP several years back, one idjit flung at me a hypothetical of a campaign based around a party of Waffen-SS.  Would I not condemn that either?  Huh?  Huh?  

Well, no, I wouldn't.

But there being tropes I don't touch has nothing to do with "trivializing."  It's sensitivity to specific issues certain players (or I) might have.  Quite aside from the problem with rape I already mentioned, the best friend of one of my players hung himself from a bridge that's not quite visible from my front porch.  In sessions with that player, I'll mention execution methods other than hanging.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;900158I love people who have trouble with disease, slavery, rape, etc. but don't bat an eye at the constant warfare, casual violence, robbery, eldritch horror and being eaten by monsters or soul-sucked by tragic undead that is typical in many popular game settings.

Yes, I've met people like that, and you likely have too.

Of course I have:).

Quote from: jhkim;900270Agreed - though a player might like realism in some things (like melee combat), but not like realism in other things (like their PC dying of dysentery).

Just to be clear, when I mentioned "sticking in people's craw" - I meant like this. They don't have fun by having aristocracy lord it over them, so they prefer not to have it in their games. Not that there's something wrong with having realistic aristocrats.

Sure, but then we come back to Spinachcat's "food allergy" post. In short, if you want just only some things to be realistic, don't expect me to guess which ones, tell me!
Then, if necessary, we can discuss whether the campaign is a good fit for you, and vice versa;).

Quote from: jhkim;900290I would draw a huge distinction between the following behaviors:

1) "I don't like playing war games. They're not fun for me."

2) "If you run war games, you're an asshole."

--

Likewise, there's a huge difference between:

1) "I don't like playing with some real medieval behaviors, such as aristocrats oppressing peasants and burning witches. It's not fun for me."

2) "If you play with oppressive aristocrats, then you're an asshole."

That's false equivalence, though. He's not saying "people that commit murder and pillage are dicks". He's saying "people that draw an entirely arbitrary line which atrocities would get depicted, and then accuse you of being an asshole if you cross another are...kinda inconsistent in their behaviour". Or at least that's how I'm understanding him, maybe he means something other than "incosistent".

QuoteIn my experience, realistic medieval life is uncommon in gaming. Most people mainly like to have swords and kill monsters - and GMs prefer to run games where PCs are magic heroes who die fighting dragons. Just be clear in what you're doing, and let players buy in or not.

We don't have enough data, but it's likely you're right on it being uncommon.

QuoteSometimes, more realistic stuff is fun - but just being realistic isn't a reason to put things in.

If you're trying to play/run a realistic game, yes it is.

QuoteI'm less worried about players who play explicit fantasy, and I'm more worried by players who think that their "gritty" RPG really represents medieval life.

To be honest, I'm even more worried about players who think their non-gritty mall fantasy represents medieval life;).
And yes, I've met those both online and offline, alas:D!

Quote from: Spinachcat;899805I've usually roleplay Traveller nobles as better than fantasy nobles.

My favorite space fantasy nobles however are in Fading Suns.

Damn, I'd love to run Fading Suns using Traveller rules.

After my group wraps up it's current Star Wars campaign, I've convinced them to play Fading Suns.  Since I will be playing a Decados noble, this thread has been very enlightening.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;900264I still think the African American experience is getting downplayed here.

You know/game with people that were enslaved and brought to your country against their will?  Because I'm fairly sure slavery hasn't been a thing here since we had a big ass war about it.

I just don't game with SJWs. Problem solved.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;900211Isn't that trivializing the legacy, the ongoing effects of slavery in the U.S.?

Also, even if the chance is smaller, it is still possible that someone at the table grew up being forced to work in a sweatshop or knows someone who was murdered. Why should mere math affects our considerations?

Hey you are trivializing X in your {play|movie|tv|book|game|painting|sculpture} and should be respectful of people who {are|suffered} X.

Look this is not a new point, arts and entertainments in all of its forms have dealing with issues of sensitivity, appropriateness, and obscenity since the first caveman started to focus on entertaining other members of his tribe. People on this forum are well aware of these issues so what is your REAL point in bringing this up. Of course there are things you can do in roleplaying as a player and referee would be considered offensive by most. And there are things you can do that would be considered offensive by some and not by others.

Roleplaying Campaigns depict an imaginary slice of life within a setting. This means every campaign of any genre or setting has the potential of being "offensive" to some. How is talking about roleplaying aristocracy any different than talking about roleplaying anything else from history? Humanity has done a lot of bad shit, as well as done a lot of good shit. Created magnificent works of beauty while engaging in acts of abject horror.

Do you honestly think that those of us in this thread don't know this. That we are such asshole if that somebody say "Look this bother me and can move onto something else." in a RPG campaign that we wouldn't work it out?

How you come off is like putting on your puritan hat, white collar, and black suit and wagging your finger at us with a stern look of disapproval while "Now you bad little children".

[ATTACH=CONFIG]93[/ATTACH]
Thou shalt not trivialize

Indeed.

I'm still unclear on what aristocrats in a game have to do with anything in this tangent.

Is there some player out there deeply offended by manorialism in Pendragon? "Whaaaat! What is all this cishet white patriarchal stuff with these lords oppressing the workers! I demand you alter the setting." Because, honestly, that guy sounds like a complete pain in the ass I'd never want to game with. Ever.

Strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!  Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony!

Quote from: estar;900372People on this forum are well aware of these issues so what is your REAL point in bringing this up?

As can probably be seen from my posting history, I don't take this identity politics stuff as seriously as I used to. By poking this issue I suppose I'm exploring and figuring out what do I still believe by seeing what others think and how they react to certain challenges to their stances.

Quote from: Warboss SqueeYou know/game with people that were enslaved and brought to your country against their will? Because I'm fairly sure slavery hasn't been a thing here since we had a big ass war about it.

No, but you know full well that there are many people who take this issue very seriously and believe it should have a big impact on how we behave in the present.

Quote from: GormenghastI'm still unclear on what aristocrats in a game have to do with anything in this tangent.

I think I'm just going to drop the tangent.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;900381As can probably be seen from my posting history, I don't take this identity politics stuff as seriously as I used to. By poking this issue I suppose I'm exploring and figuring out what do I still believe by seeing what others think and how they react to certain challenges to their stances.

I had to deal with the 80s version of this when I was involved in Student Government. My advice is to forget about identity and realize every individual has worth and every individual has problems. Identity is just a simplification that we use to cope with all the feedback and information. If you really want to make a difference then learn to listen and focus what individual people are saying and formulate your plans to help specific people with specific problems.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;900381No, but you know full well that there are many people who take this issue very seriously and believe it should have a big impact on how we behave in the present.

And their some serious issues being addressed like police brutality but it is now a form of puritanism with a nasty intolerance streak.

Quote from: Gormenghast;900374Is there some player out there deeply offended by manorialism in Pendragon? "Whaaaat! What is all this cishet white patriarchal stuff with these lords oppressing the workers! I demand you alter the setting." Because, honestly, that guy sounds like a complete pain in the ass I'd never want to game with. Ever.

As an amateur historian, I am both interested and fascinated in medieval history.  As a software engineer working in Canada, I've worked with an awful lot of expats and refugees from tyrannical, despotic or borderline feudal serf-states.[1]  Enough that I am, actually, a bit uncomfortable playing in settings where despotic rule, villeinage, or similar concepts are presented as acceptable.  Fortunately, this pretty much never happens since most fantasy settings are either sword & sorcery crapsack worlds or a kind of Disney fairy tale pastiche.



[1] It's a quirk of the Canadian software industry; too long and boring to explain

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;900381No, but you know full well that there are many people who take this issue very seriously and believe it should have a big impact on how we behave in the present.

I was about to respond "Yes, you're right" to this one.

Except that it's not actually true.  We don't have "many" people who take this issue (or other similar social issues) "very seriously."  What we do have is a culture full of mayfly dilettantes.  Based on a shared Facebook letter, or a two-screen bit on their smartphones, or a 30-second commercial spot, or an E! segment, they decide that they Care Very Much about this issue or that.  One stroke of the Like or Share button later, they have the nice fleeting brush of endorphins and congratulate themselves for being Right Thinking Folks.  Either side of the political spectrum, it doesn't matter: whether it's bashing the racist scum, or the corporate tyrants, or those dirty Meskins or knuckledragging conservatives or pedo fags or moonbat liberals, there's a target for everyone.

And that's usually as far as their deep concern goes.  They skim down to the next video clip of cute baby goats, the game's back on, oh look, one of the Kardashians had another nipslip, and poof!  What was that they cared about deeply three minutes ago, again?

I have no doubt, for instance, that there are indeed people who gnash their teeth over how the depiction of rapacious aristocrats in tabletop games "trivializes" the long and sordid history of class struggle.  Fair enough, so stipulated.  What do those people actually do about it beyond tossing out momentary sound bites?  Are they political activists?  Do they volunteer at the local soup kitchen or homeless shelter?  Did they spend weeks in a tent in Zuccotti Park or Dewey Square or Ogawa Plaza?

No?  Then screw them; I can't be assed to bother with their sound bite-driven sound bites.  They can come back and talk to me when they actually demonstrate some commitment to their alleged convictions.

Daniel,


Soviet Canuckistan, eh?



JK.

If you just don't like a campaign, don't play in it. Problem solved.

Let's say I announced that I was going to run a Harn campaign here. You signed up. Harn is " low fantasy" medieval stuff, with a sort of late Seventies stab at " feudalism." If you joined and then disrupted play or demanded I change the setting to suit your views, I'd boot you and not invite you to any future games.

But am I going to go on to your Blue Rose campaign OOC thread and slam the content and style? Nope. I might poke fun at the BR designers for what looks like pandering, but I'm not going to join a gaming group (or butt into one)  with the intention of ruining the fun for others. That's a dick move.



Having personal gaming preferences isn't the issue. We all have stuff we like, and stuff we don't. It's the part where you would try to pull SJW bullshit in my campaign that would be the issue.
But I don't see anything in your post to indicate that you, the individual forumite, actually would do that.

So we're in agreement then, more lace. Glad that's settled. :cool: