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I know Call of Cthulhu did this ok, but what other games are good at building suspense, or dread, through mechanical means? Doesn't have to be Mythos, could be more trad kinds of horror.

GURPS Horror added a Fright Check system to 1st/2nd edition GURPS, and it was built into the core system from 3rd edition on. It uses a deep effect table with modifiers for the character (will, phobias, experience, traits...) and the circumstances, and can be applied to anything from seeing a dead body or being startled by a cat, to supernatural horrors, with about 35 different levels of effect of failure ranging from a second of stun to faint or panic up to permanent character effects, falling into a coma, etc.

In a campaign where characters have to repeatedly encounter terrifying things, they can definitely have their sanity erode and crumble, especially if the frights lead to increasing phobias, which make them more vulnerable.

I want to say that Chill had a system for this, but it's been so long since I've played or read that game and I'll be damned if I can remember what it was.

Silent Legions, (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/145769/Silent-Legions) the modern day horror RPG using the same system as Stars without Number has a horror type mechanic.

I would also say the Horror Rules RPG. Although, that's billed as more of an 80's horror flick emulation game (with a bit of black comedy thrown in). You could easily just play it as straight horror though.

The mechanics are definitely slanted towards the genre - you can become mad as a mongoose in a very short space of time.

Quote from: Achaerone;1003855I want to say that Chill had a system for this, but it's been so long since I've played or read that game and I'll be damned if I can remember what it was.

Fear check resulting in Scared, Loathing, Misgivings, or Heroism?

The End of the World series from FFG has stress tracks that monitor physical and mental stress.  I have seen similar mechanics in other games.

The Jenga tower in Dread seems a pretty good mechanic for this.

Quote from: danskmacabre;1003856Silent Legions, (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/145769/Silent-Legions) the modern day horror RPG using the same system as Stars without Number has a horror type mechanic.

Describe it?

Quote from: Dumarest;1003878Describe it?

Here's a link to a full review I did of it here.
https://rpgworkshop.wordpress.com/2016/04/29/silent-legions-rpg-review/

If you look around the site, you''l see reviews of Stars Without Number (Scifi in the Style of Traveler)  and Other Dust (Post Apocalyptic).

Quote from: danskmacabre;1003882Here's a link to a full review I did of it here.
https://rpgworkshop.wordpress.com/2016/04/29/silent-legions-rpg-review/

If you look around the site, you''l see reviews of Stars Without Number (Scifi in the Style of Traveler)  and Other Dust (Post Apocalyptic).

Cool, thank you.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1003876The Jenga tower in Dread seems a pretty good mechanic for this.

This. Just watch the Will Wheaton video and you'll know how to run Dread better than if you read the sketchy rulebook.

Thanks for these. I'll have a look at Chill I think...

I think The One Ring does a very good job of starting with Hope and wearing the players down with the weight of the Shadow (palpable in world dread, fear and ultimately misery).

Cryptworld uses a sliding Fear Check mechanic. The more horrifying the situation/creature, the more difficult it is to pass the check. (An updated variation of the original Chill 1e mechanic.)

Quote from: Ted;1003978I think The One Ring does a very good job of starting with Hope and wearing the players down with the weight of the Shadow (palpable in world dread, fear and ultimately misery).

I kinda disagree with this. I don't feel like the Hope mechanic models horror and dread so much as despair and exhaustion.

The Tension mechanic in Dead Of Night is a very nifty device for moderating the GM's descriptions of scenes, the measuring of outcomes and determining where the players are in the story. The points can also be spent by the GM to push the characters towards success or failure. It's an absolute delight in play.

Unknown Armies?

I find Horror RPGs tend to have the same problem, a lack of buy in from the players.

One can bash on CoCs take on mental illness all day long (it is not a model for the Psych 101 RPG), but reading arguments against the concept has resulted in my believing most RPG players truly believe that watching their dead mother climb out of the grave and devour half the funeral party before they put her down with a .44 between the eyes would not have an impact on their mental well being.  

I'm not sure mechanics can fix player mindset. As a result I've generally stuck more with monster hunting games than pure horror.  

That said, I did like the fright check used in GURPS Horror, and when used in its entirety CoC's Sanity stat does more or less do what it is supposed to emulate. It seems many gloss over the whole sanity can be recovered bit and repeated exposure can reduce the effects (seen one ghoul you've seen them all :p ).

Quote from: Toadmaster;1004617One can bash on CoCs take on mental illness all day long (it is not a model for the Psych 101 RPG), but reading arguments against the concept has resulted in my believing most RPG players truly believe that watching their dead mother climb out of the grave and devour half the funeral party before they put her down with a .44 between the eyes would not have an impact on their mental well being.

Those are probably the same players who insist that their PC should be immune to torture..."Nope. I still won't talk."

QuoteThat said, I did like the fright check used in GURPS Horror, and when used in its entirety CoC's Sanity stat does more or less do what it is supposed to emulate. It seems many gloss over the whole sanity can be recovered bit and repeated exposure can reduce the effects (seen one ghoul you've seen them all :p ).

Good point. Recovering sanity was a key factor in the continued viability of a number of PCs in our CoC games. We did you reduction of sanity loss from repeated exposure...though as we played it, a single ghoul wouldn't have been enough to immunize you from their horror.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1004543Unknown Armies?

I thought about mentioning it. It used to be mentioned often on the purple place, but having never played UA nor read the rules I was reluctant to make a claim for how well it handles horror.

Quote from: Bren;1004632Those are probably the same players who insist that their PC should be immune to torture..."Nope. I still won't talk."

Good point. Recovering sanity was a key factor in the continued viability of a number of PCs in our CoC games. We did you reduction of sanity loss from repeated exposure...though as we played it, a single ghoul wouldn't have been enough to immunize you from their horror.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1004543Unknown Armies?

I thought about mentioning it. It used to be mentioned often on the purple place, but having never played UA nor read the rules I was reluctant to make a claim for how well it handles horror.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1004617One can bash on CoCs take on mental illness all day long (it is not a model for the Psych 101 RPG)....

Something I continue to run into with Traveller Players is the odd duck who hates the game because it is designed to be a game and not a college course on orbital mechanics, planetary science, economics, biology, chemistry, or physics. The best games, IMHO, provide a suspension of disbelief framework with the rules so that the players can try to buy into the game premise while not sucking the fun out of the game by making it a hyper accurate model of reality.

Quote from: jeff37923;1004637Something I continue to run into with Traveller Players is the odd duck who hates the game because it is designed to be a game and not a college course on orbital mechanics, planetary science, economics, biology, chemistry, or physics. The best games, IMHO, provide a suspension of disbelief framework with the rules so that the players can try to buy into the game premise while not sucking the fun out of the game by making it a hyper accurate model of reality.

I don't believe people of that sort are actually interested in the game as much as an avenue to try to demonstrate their superior knowledge. At least that's been my experience.

Quote from: jeff37923;1004637Something I continue to run into with Traveller Players is the odd duck who hates the game because it is designed to be a game and not a college course on orbital mechanics, planetary science, economics, biology, chemistry, or physics. The best games, IMHO, provide a suspension of disbelief framework with the rules so that the players can try to buy into the game premise while not sucking the fun out of the game by making it a hyper accurate model of reality.

I could understand that more with GURPS, because GURPS actually tries. But Traveller is too sparse -- a UPP is an outline and ideas, not a physics lesson.

Quote from: Bren;1004632Those are probably the same players who insist that their PC should be immune to torture..."Nope. I still won't talk."

Good point. Recovering sanity was a key factor in the continued viability of a number of PCs in our CoC games. We did you reduction of sanity loss from repeated exposure...though as we played it, a single ghoul wouldn't have been enough to immunize you from their horror.

I thought about mentioning it. It used to be mentioned often on the purple place, but having never played UA nor read the rules I was reluctant to make a claim for how well it handles horror.

Exactly, just with horror that denial is more in your face than most other situations where it comes up.

Quote from: jeff37923;1004637Something I continue to run into with Traveller Players is the odd duck who hates the game because it is designed to be a game and not a college course on orbital mechanics, planetary science, economics, biology, chemistry, or physics. The best games, IMHO, provide a suspension of disbelief framework with the rules so that the players can try to buy into the game premise while not sucking the fun out of the game by making it a hyper accurate model of reality.

It seems like there are a number of players who feel they have to prove how fake the situation is. I suppose it happens but I've never encountered this behavior when elves, and orcs are involved. I've never once heard someone dismiss the ability of a big lizard to breathe fire. Throw in a homicidal sentient homicidal plant or jump drives and the "non-believers" are happy to point out the flaws.

Quote from: Bren;1004632I thought about mentioning it. It used to be mentioned often on the purple place, but having never played UA nor read the rules I was reluctant to make a claim for how well it handles horror.

I'm not familiar with with the recent (3rd) edition, but the madness meters of 1st and 2nd edition Unknown Armies are a great mechanic. The basic idea is that you have 5 meters, which measure different kinds of stress (like violence or the unnatural). If you encounter that kind of stress, you have to roll to see if you keep things under control, or freak out. If you freak, you can choose flight, fight, or freeze -- and that's up to the player, so it doesn't make you automatically useless. But there are also long term effects of stress. If you fail the check, you mark down 1 failed notch along that meter, and start getting a little squirrely. Each failed check adds a new notch, and ups the crazy a bit. You go permanently insane at 5 failed notches. If you succeed on the check, you mark down a hardened notch instead. Hardened notches make you immune to lesser types of stress, so if you have 6 hardened notches on the violence meter, you'll never freak out just because you heard gunfire (but you're still vulnerable to something like witnessing a mass execution). But becoming hardened isn't all good, either. You become more distant and less human, and eventually lose access to your passions (which allow you to flip percentile rolls) and become a sociopath.

They're not really any more realistic or reflective of how mental illness actually works than Call of Cthulhu's venerable sanity check (the madness meters are inspired by PTSD, but that's not how PTSD works), but it works well in play.

Quote from: jeff37923;1004637Something I continue to run into with Traveller Players is the odd duck who hates the game because it is designed to be a game and not a college course on orbital mechanics, planetary science, economics, biology, chemistry, or physics.

I've seen enough of those guys that it's put me off playing anything except the zaniest of scifi games. And it's not just Traveller who brings them either... I've run into them in Star Trek games, Shadowrun games, SWN games.
Same guys also seem to shit-clog games set in modern times... wanting to lecture the table on weapons, telecommunications, computers, emergency services, medicine, layouts of national airports... blech.

Quote from: Simlasa;1004678wanting to lecture the table on weapons, telecommunications, computers, emergency services, medicine, layouts of national airports... blech.

With all that immense amount of knowledge I'm sure they'd be a wonderful GM.  In fact, I don't think I qualify to GM for them anymore, so they'll have to take over the game. ;)

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Quote from: Justin Alexander;1004689Are you looking for games that model the horror/fear/dread of the PCs mechanically? Or are you looking for games that mechanically create those emotional states in the players?

that's a perceptive question. I think I was angling for the former, but perhaps as a means of inculcating the latter.

Let me reveal my thinking behind this. A friend of mine was telling me about a Hammer horror film he saw when he was a kid. One of the Christopher Lee Dracula films that really frightened him featured  a priest who was terrified of Dracula in a real,abject way. Seeing an authority figure debased by his fears (the guy was a Catholic, so perhaps this was a factor)  generated a dread of Dracula in him that he never felt in other similar films.

I suppose my hope is that finding a system that models dread in a plausible, intuitive way , might have the same effect.  Players might feel something of the fear that their characters are plausibly experiencing.

Quote from: Ted;1003978I think The One Ring does a very good job of starting with Hope and wearing the players down with the weight of the Shadow (palpable in world dread, fear and ultimately misery).

I was thinking of TOR, too. There's a zombie version of The One Ring, and the Hope/Shadow element worked well in it.  

Quote from: Justin Alexander;1004689Are you looking for games that model the horror/fear/dread of the PCs mechanically? Or are you looking for games that mechanically create those emotional states in the players?

Creating those states in the players is every GM's dream, crushed repeatedly by the least serious player at the table.

I can't count how many times we've gotten a mood going, and then the ha-ha-I'm-so-funny guy or the I-am-uncomfortable-with-feelings guy cracks a bad joke to break it.

Quote from: Wanderer;1004740A friend of mine was telling me about a Hammer horror film he saw when he was a kid. One of the Christopher Lee Dracula films that really frightened him featured  a priest who was terrified of Dracula in a real,abject way.

I think that was 'Dracula Has Risen from the Grave'.
I remember people expressing something similar about a scene in 'Dragonslayer' where a priest attempts to repel/exorcise the dragon and gets burned to a crisp... that by subverting/ignoring the power of god it made the dragon much much scarier for them.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;1004689It's one of the reasons I prefer the Stability/Sanity system from Trail of Cthulhu. It allows characters to be pounded by the immediacy of terror without permanently breaking them, and handles the recuperation process automatically without the GM needing to intercede with fairly arbitrary Sanity bonuses.

Sanity awards seem about as arbitrary as the experience awards in a lot of systems. They don't especially concern me, but I can see how someone might want something other than the Keeper awards appropriate sanity. But in my comment I wasn't thinking of the sanity awards for victory but the mechanism in the rules for using Psychology/Psychiatry to regain lost sanity. It's a fairly time consuming process that will usually happen outside of an actual scenario and sanity regained is limited by the lower of starting sanity or max sanity (100-Cthulhu Mythos).

I picked up Ten Candles recently and it seems like it would play as well as I've heard it does.

I bought Ten Candles yesterday after reading this thread. Really neat ideas. Not sure how it will play with my group, but it's worth a shot.

Quote from: Simlasa;1004766I think that was 'Dracula Has Risen from the Grave'.
I remember people expressing something similar about a scene in 'Dragonslayer' where a priest attempts to repel/exorcise the dragon and gets burned to a crisp... that by subverting/ignoring the power of god it made the dragon much much scarier for them.

[Checks]. So it was. Do you have a working knowledge of all 70s Drac flicks?  :D

Quote from: darthfozzywig;1005154I bought Ten Candles yesterday after reading this thread. Really neat ideas. Not sure how it will play with my group, but it's worth a shot.

Isn't there an issue that you end up playing, or trying to play...in the dark?

Quote from: Wanderer;1005298Isn't there an issue that you end up playing, or trying to play...in the dark?

It is a (real) storygame played by candlelight.

Quote from: Voros;1003886This. Just watch the Will Wheaton video and you'll know how to run Dread better than if you read the sketchy rulebook.

Dread isn't good for anything (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?7352-Dread).

Adding mechanics ruins fear and horror by clarifying your situation.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1005745Dread isn't good for anything (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?7352-Dread).

:rolleyes:

I find Dread to be a critically flawed game (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/9647/roleplaying-games/dread-pacing-problems), but RPG reviewers who have never played a game who nevertheless insist that games are literally unplayable and everyone playing them is lying about their experiences are demonstrating little except their inability to write RPG reviews.

Very well stated as usual. I only read Dread but I felt that something seemed off. Still the Jenga as mechanic seems inspired enough that is could be repurposed.

Having played ten candles, it's neat I guess but I had a terrible time and don't wanna play it again.
Fundamentally, it sets up a game where in theory a player has creative freedom to introduce plot and setting elements just as much as the GM. It could be a really nice storytelling experience. In practice, though, the GM gets creative control and gets to tell the players 'no, I don't think that fits, veto'. And having your creative input vetoed all the time fucking sucks.
It's a shame, 'cos the way it uses fire and light as physical concrete things that reflect the game is neat. But the way it divides up narrative rights is fundamentally flawed.

Or maybe the game I was in just sucked, and I'm bitter, and the game's actually fine. Hard to say.

Sounds like a bad GM. There is no mechanic that allows GMs to veto the players in Ten Candles that I recall except that a player cannot establish a weakness for Them by speaking a truth, only the GM can do that. The players can even take narrative rights from the GM by putting out a candle. Otherwise the GMs main job is to call for conflict rolls.

New Delta Green is the best.
It's close to regular CoC which is sufficient.
It does have mechanic of "fixing" your insanity by burning your relationships. Not a fan of that. I like DG just because of great thin core ruleset.

Quote from: cavegirl;1006251Or maybe the game I was in just sucked, and I'm bitter, and the game's actually fine. Hard to say.

Sounds like your GM was having a hard time of letting other people contribute (which I get - it's a different way of playing).

The game is quite explicit about narrative control. When a player has control to "speak a truth" (i.e. establish something in the game that is true), no one (inc. the GM) can overrule it.

QuoteThe ability to speak truths is a powerful resource. When you speak a truth, you may establish any one thing as an irrefutable fact of the story.
(...)
Once something is true, it is true. While you can build off of the truths of others, you cannot contradict them.

The only exception is a weakness for Them: players can't establish a weakness for the baddies. Otherwise, when it's your turn, the GM just has to run with it.

Quote from: Wanderer;1005298Isn't there an issue that you end up playing, or trying to play...in the dark?

You're rolling dice by candlelight, but there's not any reading or looking at charts. And when the last candle is out, everyone's dead anyway. :)

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Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1005748Adding mechanics ruins fear and horror by clarifying your situation.

I don't think that is necessarily true. In my experience most players (myself included) have the attitude that they are entitled to see all the working bits which would support your comment, but taking that away from them could be used to increase tension. Mechanics don't have to clarify the players / PCs situation, primarily by not letting them know what the mechanics mean.

Don't let the players know what is going on, just ask for rolls, don't tell them why, don't tell them if they were successful or not unless it would be obvious. Ask for rolls that mean nothing, ask for rolls way before they are needed so when the event needing a roll occurs it just happens.

But this also goes to my earlier comment, the players have to go along, some will demand to know how and why things are happening, what the roll meant, will demand that they succeeded and the GM is cheating. Many players won't buy into the horror genre, they just want a game with monsters and PCs who fight them.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;1005987:rolleyes:

I find Dread to be a critically flawed game (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/9647/roleplaying-games/dread-pacing-problems), but RPG reviewers who have never played a game who nevertheless insist that games are literally unplayable and everyone playing them is lying about their experiences are demonstrating little except their inability to write RPG reviews.

Feel free to point out where I'm wrong. Otherwise, shut the fuck up, bitch.

Having found that the right application of losing or gaining damage (hit points) can add a some serious stress/anxiety at the table, I feel like any stress/sanity mechanic can employ a similar approach to the same effect.

I also agree that the players have to buy into the genre and help set the mood with their actions.

Although WOIN didn't appeal to me, I do appreciate the countdown mechanic (http://www.woinrpg.com/countdowns/?rq=countdown), where you roll a pool of d6s, and if you hit a number or higher you remove the die. You roll at intervals until you run out of dice in the pool. For example: Your bleeding out, so you have a pool of 4 dice and any dice you roll a 5 or 6, you remove the die. You keep rolling every round until someone stops your bleeding or you bleed out. I feel like this could add some fantastic anxiety/fear if applied to the right circumstance. Maybe something like "when you run out of dice, you are so scared you can no longer act rationally".