Bren
Since I see that you have experience with Honor & Intrigue, have you tried using the H&I rule system in Tekumel?

If so, how well does it work?
If not, any reason why not?

Tekumel tends toward a lot of social interaction from my experience (and reports from others) and
from my cursory look at H&I, it looks like they would work well together.

I'm using the original EPT rules as a base and thinking how well the H&I social mechanics could be appended.
Would the H&I rules provide everything that would be needed by itself?
I didn't see much "tech magic" in H&I.
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Now there's an idea! If you're using high or very high status natives, you can jump straight into H+I. If you're using barbarians fresh off the boat, you can use BoL for Tsuru'um dungeon crawling, and tack on the H+I social mechanics for when they've accrued enough wealth to buy themselves citizenship, clan adoption and military/political/religious office.

Or use original EPT for the descriptions, and roleplay the social and intrigue interactions by roleplaying.

H+I has social mechanics. They are slightly more complicated the the reaction checks in OD&D or persuasion rolls (e.g. orate, debate, fast talk) in Runequest or Call of Cthulhu. Since the social combat is only slightly more complicated it's not too difficult to mix mechanics in with the players just talking through their PC's roleplaying.

Social Ranks don't use a mechanical system in H+I. For that I added the Social Rank system from Flashing Blades. Coincidentally I have a blog post scheduled on the topic of Social Ranks in H+I and in my house ruled campaign. I moved up the post date to Monday, so you should be able to see it here, as if 12:30AM Orlando time / 05:30 BST (i.e. GMT+1). (I'm still new at Blogger, so if that link doesn't work, go to the link in my signature.)

The big difference between H+I and BoL is the combat system. H+I is better balanced for swashbuckling and dueling. BoL is better balanced for Thongor and Conan like barbarian sword play.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;842964Or use original EPT for the descriptions, and roleplay the social and intrigue interactions by roleplaying.

While this is a great idea when you know the setting well, new players or those without a degree in Tsolyánu Customs and Etiquette can be more comfortable using mechanics they do understand.
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Quote from: Greentongue;842994While this is a great idea when you know the setting well, new players or those without a degree in Tsolyánu Customs and Etiquette can be more comfortable using mechanics they do understand.
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Nonsense.  You're not expecting them to speak Tsolyani, you're telling them that somebody who is obviously a high noble has sent a flunky over to talk to them.  The flunky says "My master may wish to employ your talents."

Or whatever.

Gronan:
You have the enviable experience of having played with the "Creator".
The rest of us have to stumble about with the few "post cards" we find detailing where you have been and what you did.

Are you saying that the typical dialog from, "You meet the master's henchman in the tavern. He makes an offer of great interest",
is close enough to what you experienced?

The challenge as I see it is to get the flavor, without the intimidation, of an alien setting. It is entirely possible I am over thinking things.
Even when you try to brush off the "encrusted verisimilitude" from the Game, some remains.

I welcome crutches that will help everyone get up to speed and that can be glossed over when no longer needed.
If H&I can give those, I'm interested.
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Whatever one might think of the idea of social mechanics, H+I has an advantage which is very important for Swords and Planet or Swashbuckling games. Namely, it makes sharp tongue and quick wit a nice addition to a quick blade.
Imagine hiCyrano kaBergerac being ambushed by an enemy in the Underworld. He is hurt, but then pulls out his Chlen blade, while retreating from next attack, and answers with a quip.
His enraged enemy makes an easily dodgeable attack, and hiCyrano kaBergerac continues, composing on the spot a verse, mocking his enemy's courage, lineage and personal habits. Even more engaged, the enemy attacks poorly and since hiCyrano's kept his cool, his riposte runs him through!
Everything in italics is backed by the mechanics of the game. Yet it's not an uber attack, just an option among many that evoke a given genre.
Does that seem fitting, now?

Quote from: AsenRG;843111Does that seem fitting, now?

It certainly sounds like the Swords & Planet style that I would want to play.

How well could you use the base Barbarians of Lemuria for Tsuru'um dungeon crawling?
Is BoL's treatment of "magic" compatible/comparable?
Could you append BoL "magic" to H&I or would that not be essential?

Would H&I add to or replace BoL and at what point would the decision need to be made?

(I think I need to do more than glance at these rules and invest some money if this feedback is solid.)
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Quote from: Greentongue;843147It certainly sounds like the Swords & Planet style that I would want to play.

Here's the good news: it's basic H+I by the book;)! Want me to translate it in system terms?
Attack by surprise denies you the option to retreat instead of getting hurt, so you get hurt (Assassin Career and a knife is deadly by the book).
You get attacked again, and because you're low on HP, so you decide to Give Advantage (HP is your "meatpoints", Advantage is your luck, skill and initiative).
Seeing as your enemy now can Press the advantage, you decide to give him a penalty. So you use your Noble for a quick quip.
He takes the penalty, attacks, but you have a chance to dodge now. You do that, and use Poet to construct a poem.
Now he's at serious disadvantage, attacks hoping to Press the advantage, yet it still doesn't work. You parry, riposte, and he's either going to be hurt, or he can also Give Advantage. Either variant, he's no longer having an advantage...

QuoteHow well could you use the base Barbarians of Lemuria for Tsuru'um dungeon crawling?

BoL is made for such adventures, if you ask me.

QuoteIs BoL's treatment of "magic" compatible/comparable?

Yes, the core rules are quite similar.

QuoteCould you append BoL "magic" to H&I or would that not be essential?

Before the update to the newest BoL edition, they were quite similar. They still remain so, but I admit I haven't read the magic rules in the new BoL in detail (despite being a KS backer).

QuoteWould H&I add to or replace BoL and at what point would the decision need to be made?

Both. The dueling system isn't in BoL, and I'd frankly prefer to use H+I's stats (which replace BoL's, so you need to start like that).
Overall, I'd use "straight" H+I for it, while I'd keep to BoL for pure S&S. I've always found that Sword and Planet is closer to swashbuckling, although the genres are definitely related.

Quote(I think I need to do more than glance at these rules and invest some money if this feedback is solid.)
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It's your call. I'm not affiliated in any way to the authors, I've just had fun with the system;).
Granted, Bren has more experience with it than me. He could probably tell you more.

Asen did a good job of describing H+I. I haven't played BoL and have only skimmed some of the rules, but as it is designed for Swords & Sorcery it should work for Tekumel. There are two big differences and a few minor differences in the systems.

The two big differences are dueling and magic. H

+I has more elaborate dueling rules to facilitate the kind of back and forth action you see in movies like Richard Lester's 1970s Three Musketeers or Errol Flynn movies. BoL has a simpler combat mechanic that will play faster, but won't allow so much tactical detail or flashy mechanics.

Quote from: Greentongue;843147Could you append BoL "magic" to H&I or would that not be essential?

Magic in H+I is intended for evil sorcerer NPCs not for PCs. While the magic may be appropriate for some of the darker Tsolyani gods it will probably need some reworking for player 'priests' especially ones from the lighter side deities. BoL magic is probably going to be easier adapt to Tekumel "magic." The eyes will be fine in either system since they are really tech gadgets not magic.

Minor differences are, as Asen mentioned, a difference in stats and combat abilities. Chris, the designer, commented on the differences here.

Full disclosure, like Asen, I have no connection with BASH, Chris Rutowsky, H+I, or BoL. I just really like the H+I system.

Quote from: Greentongue;843101Gronan:
You have the enviable experience of having played with the "Creator".
The rest of us have to stumble about with the few "post cards" we find detailing where you have been and what you did.

Are you saying that the typical dialog from, "You meet the master's henchman in the tavern. He makes an offer of great interest",
is close enough to what you experienced?

The challenge as I see it is to get the flavor, without the intimidation, of an alien setting. It is entirely possible I am over thinking things.
Even when you try to brush off the "encrusted verisimilitude" from the Game, some remains.

I welcome crutches that will help everyone get up to speed and that can be glossed over when no longer needed.
If H&I can give those, I'm interested.
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Mechanics have nothing to do with it, and I fail to see how mechanics will provide cultural flavor.

Give me an example of what you want to do and I'll show you what I mean.

Gronan:
A way to do the following that would be easy to adjudicate and easy for new players to judge their odds at getting the results in their benefit.

QuoteReturning to Chozal he bowed and made his report. Chozal and Tordo spoke together quietly and then Tordo strode up to your boat.
"Chozal of the Silver Net has graciously offered to purchase your boat for two hundred gold Kaitars," he stated formally. "If you accept, remove yourselves and your baskets."

"Payment and document will be given by the servant of Chozal of the Silver Net."
With that he turned away without waiting for you to reply.

Kumahl nods sagely, doing a poor job of looking somewhat pleased with himself. "Agreed, agreed. Thank you."

He looks around the place. "Come, let's go!" he says eagerly to Huruyan. He looks down at the pile of things and takes whatever his friend hands him to carry before the pair set off to get their payment.


Gathering your possessions together, you can fit some into a small basket. It and the rest of your possessions fit into the longest square basket. This square basket can be easily carried between you or awkwardly by one of you. It is also sturdy enough to sit upon.

With your basket between you, you approach Chozal and the people surrounding him. As you get near, the man with a skirt and a sash you saw earlier motions you towards an impromptu desk made from the square basket the slave had been carrying. He has two small bags, one bulky and the other mostly empty. He is just finishing the second document which he then offers both of to you.

Sitting the basket down, Kumahl takes the offered papers.
When Kumahl finished reviewing he took his seal from around his neck, touched it to the offered ink pad and pressed it to the bottom of each paper.
Kumahl told Huruyan that each copy of the sales document was in order, even though more elaborate then the ones back home. There were many more evocations of the approval of the Emperor and the Gods then necessary.
Huruyan followed Kumahl's lead and then handed the papers back.

With that, Chozal's man handed over the bulkier bag to Huruyan. It had a nice heft to it. From the sound and feel, the bag was full of gold and silver discs.

Kumahl and Huruyan both noticed the hungry look of many scruffy dock hands and fisher-folk as they followed the proceeding. Some were sly in their watching but others were not.

Kumahl frowns. He turns to Chozal and says quietly, "Can you recommend a bodyguard whom we can hire quickly? I fear that unsavory sorts may wish to free us from our funds."

Huruyan asks "maybe you could recommend a market place where we can buy some weapons for protection "

Chozal frowns at Kumahl's impertinence but his man deflects the question to himself.

"Yes, it is unwise for strangers to wander around unprotected in the city, I suggest you locate a branch of your clan as soon as possible. If there is none within the city then, the Clan of the Bronze Mace can provide bodyguards of any quality you need."

Turning to Huruyan, "As for finding weapons for your own protection, the Armoury of Vri of Purdimal will have the quality of weapons you can afford. Sturdy and functional but I must warn you, they are little more than that. It is said that his clan collects the weapons from the dead to resell to the living."

"Since you are new here, I suggest that you hire a local youth to guide you. If you can't find your own clan house then you will want to stay at the Tower of the Red Dome. It is the guesthouse for foreigners of no status."

"Oh, and another thing, I've heard the Imperial Navy has just finished another war ship and is looking for crew. Anyone found on the streets at night could get impressed into service as the rowing crew. There is a bounty for each person supplied to the Navy."

May take a day or two before I have time to examine this.  Thanks.

(It may be the weekend.)