I know in one comic based on supernatural hunting they had crosses effectively with the long end sharpened into blades and used as throwing daggers.

And theres this idea for making a Tiamat symbol as some sort of Krull Glaive throwing weapon.

Quote from: Zalman;1127934Holy symbols are very clerical, and clerics are very Christian.

Not really. There's lots of other cultures that have (obviously very different) holy symbols. They could date all the way back to things like fetish-sticks used by Shamans. In India and China you had mala beads. In Buddhist and Hebrew practices you had little objects with a piece of holy scripture inside them. Of course there are a few religious cultures that don't really have anything directly like a holy symbol; Islam comes to mind, though even there you had things like Sufis or the masters of certain other sects having cloaks that were both a symbol of their spiritual authority and also considered holy objects.

What's true about your statement, though, is that in D&D settings Holy Symbols are often treated like just faux-crucifixes, they're just necklaces with a symbol on them, which is pretty lame and boring as a choice.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1127688Do you do anything special with cleric's holy symbols in your D&D/OSR games?

Yes, and have several ways to have the same symbol (either a different artifact or the same) be more powerful, by either the blessing of a higher priest, a saint or the god itself, some religions have more than one depending on the lore and some symbols are more effective than others for certain tasks depending on the god they represent.

And many of those same ideas together with other stuff are partly the inspiration for a game I just added to the back burner list.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1127917Do any of you have monsters who desecrate PC's holy symbols?

I've made an undead rust monster, but its a desecration beast used to defile temples. Instead of turning metal to steel, the defiling beast transforms holy symbols, scrolls, images, etc into blasphemous versions.

Not before reading this, now I think I'll see if I can work it into my games. What I do have is a way to desecrate holy places, to drain them of any power, but it's nothing innovative, just some cultists/monsters performing unholy rituals or abhorrent (to the god/gods) stuff in the holy place.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1129247Not really. There's lots of other cultures that have (obviously very different) holy symbols. They could date all the way back to things like fetish-sticks used by Shamans. In India and China you had mala beads. In Buddhist and Hebrew practices you had little objects with a piece of holy scripture inside them. Of course there are a few religious cultures that don't really have anything directly like a holy symbol; Islam comes to mind, though even there you had things like Sufis or the masters of certain other sects having cloaks that were both a symbol of their spiritual authority and also considered holy objects.

What's true about your statement, though, is that in D&D settings Holy Symbols are often treated like just faux-crucifixes, they're just necklaces with a symbol on them, which is pretty lame and boring as a choice.

It's more than that -- they don't just look like crucifixes, they act just like crucifixes in the movies, whence the archetype of a "holy symbol". Sure, other religions have holy objects, but none of the ones you named grant powers. Mala beads are just prayer counters. Tefillin are meditative focuses. None of these items have an external power on their own, as we're led to believe the crucifix does in the face of a vampire, for example.

Symbols of authority are one thing; items of actual power are another. In real religions that latter are considered what D&D calls artifacts, not symbols of office worn by every clergyman.

Quote from: Zalman;1129286It's more than that -- they don't just look like crucifixes, they act just like crucifixes in the movies, whence the archetype of a "holy symbol". Sure, other religions have holy objects, but none of the ones you named grant powers. Mala beads are just prayer counters. Tefillin are meditative focuses. None of these items have an external power on their own, as we're led to believe the crucifix does in the face of a vampire, for example.

Symbols of authority are one thing; items of actual power are another. In real religions that latter are considered what D&D calls artifacts, not symbols of office worn by every clergyman.

Except for the Pentagram, which has been used for protection and predates Christianity by millennia. Not sure about other symbols specifically, but charms or amulets that are supposed supposed to confer luck or other benefits have been used since ancient times well before Christianity existed.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1129293Except for the Pentagram, which has been used for protection and predates Christianity by millennia. Not sure about other symbols specifically, but charms or amulets that are supposed supposed to confer luck or other benefits have been used since ancient times well before Christianity existed.

  Just as the cleric is a mélange of various archetypes, the D&D holy symbol seems to be a combination of religious icon, protective amulet, and sacramental or even sacrament depending on the specific rules set.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1129293Except for the Pentagram which has been used for protection and predates Christianity by millennia.

A fair point, and perhaps it's a little odd that the Pentagram gets its own treatment as a trope apart from Holy Symbols, via spells like Protection From Evil.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1129293Not sure about other symbols specifically, but charms or amulets that are supposed supposed to confer luck or other benefits have been used since ancient times well before Christianity existed.

This sort of charm works just as well for any layman, or at the very least any lay believer. To that extent I think they're more akin to magic items in D&D terms.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1127917Do any of you have monsters who desecrate PC's holy symbols?

I do like that sort of imagery.  Francis Goes Coppola's Dracula and Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust both had the vampire able to assault holy symbols with their profane presence.

It is a very "oh shit" moment when the cleric has their holy symbols burst into flame.

Crosses are the only holy symbol that work in my current setting. Although it is pseudo historical 3rd century Ireland. And it is not based on the faith of the wielded. Undead and Demons can not touch or look upon a holy symbol or the Bible. Touching other holy artifact is dangerous to them. For this specific setting there is only one god. Although demons are rampant and clever.

Quote from: Arnwolf666;1129391Crosses are the only holy symbol that work in my current setting. Although it is pseudo historical 3rd century Ireland. And it is not based on the faith of the wielded. Undead and Demons can not touch or look upon a holy symbol or the Bible. Touching other holy artifact is dangerous to them. For this specific setting there is only one god. Although demons are rampant and clever.

I think that is how it is in Ars Magica too.  So long as a cross or Bible or Torah or whatever is treated like a sacred object, then it is touched by the Dominion and the Infernal cannot stand the presence of it.  

I think you can't just nail sticks together though, outside extraordinary circumstances.  If a devoted person makes a makeshift cross with care and reverence it probably counts, but just slapping two branches together in a panic isn't necessarily going to draw Gods eye.

In Lion & Dragon, besides holy symbols, there's also rules for relics. These are expanded somewhat in the Pundit Presents supplement "the cult of the saints", where a saint's relic can help you invoke his intervention.

Radwald fully implements a system of magic based upon rune castings and rune symbols of Nordic tradition and modern assumptions/invention of such. Radwald is a world/adventure supplement for Heroes and Other Worlds, which is an OSR product of Fantasy Trip.  Radwald would be easy to use with Fantasy Trip or GURPS, if the ref is familiar with those games.  Really, the thinking ref can run it under whatever, since the intended game is pretty straight forward.

If Palladium RPG was published today, many would consider it OSR.  It has been around for a long time, 1983.  The wards, symbols and circles, which are are fundamental to the diabolist and summoner classes, are intended to be used to describe the magic process.  Sometimes it is a little tricky to see how that is done from the rule book, requiring some ref or perhaps player interpretation.  Never the less, it is an interesting visual arts perspective on implementing magic in a game.

I'll vouch for Pundit's well thought out implementation of symbols of many medieval types in Lion & Dragon.

I do not require them (D6 Fantasy) but instead treat them as a bonus of relevant sort if used, using one might allow a re-roll of 1's or make them count as 2's at least. Never happened but had always intended to have them effect undead and the like the same way as holy water but no one has ever tried to touch one to an opponent or hit them with it.

Someone mentioned earlier their 3rd century ireland campaign has only the one god, I do something similar in a sense...
The jacked up historical/mythical mish mash time period jumping twilight zone madness i run has only one true god who exists outside the hard drive as it were, who responds to christians muslims and jews just the same, while all other historical or cultural gods exist within the hard drive the same as humans, so there is a thor or odin, there is a tiamat, there is an asmodeus...but they are all "on the drive" as it were, all npcs of a powerful sort who can have worshippers and grant them boons and miracles but who are not the same "god" that sits at his computer desk and runs bigbang.exe or apocalypse.bat.

I, the player who runs skyrim.exe, exist outside the hardrive and in this analogy am the one true god, the creator, whilst akatosh and talos and molag bal all exist inside the skyrim data folder, and while they can be gods as far as the npcs in skyrim are concerned, i can delete their asses or mod them into schoolgirls.