I think that the biggest problem is with simulating the relative frailty of the human body with regards to chopping it up.

In both those examples, the loser was untouched until the final blow that killed him.  If you're using a hp model, then you're going to want to be doing the fight at relatively low levels so that a couple hits will disable, or have some kind of mechanic for higher damage output.

In the scope of the 13th Warrior duel (using D&D, but don't lump me in with that Gygax Fanboy) - Herger is referred to as a Skald, but rather than making him a Bard, I'd go with Fighter/Rogue; another alternative, if this is a no-magic environment, would be to swap the bardiac music and spell class features for Rogue sneak attacks and make him a Bard, which works better, I think.  He's an experienced fighter, so we'll say he's 8th level. (~30hp, +7/+2 ATK, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Power Attack)

His opponent, Angus(? I think.. can't remember) is a younger guy, much less experienced, but strong.  I'd give him 4th level fighter with a high str. (~30 hp, +8 ATK, Power Attack, Cleave, WF/WS: Sword)

So the duel begins, and Herger's player informs the DM that he's going to be fighting defensively but using Bluff to seem to be hurt anytime the shield is struck (it's a hp system, so in theory he doesn't need blood to have lost hp...)  He makes a few good bluff rolls, then declares that he's going to seem to be at exactly 0.  He's performing a feint maneuver, and drops his shield in the process.  Angus moves in for the Coup, and Herger makes a sneak attack, calling shot to attempt to induce a critical (I'm playing in some house rules here, but you asked how I'd do it.)  Since Angus is flat footed against the attack, Hergor rolls enough to threaten a crit (I use 10 higher than the number required to hit, but at a -3 for declaring you're doing it), and does his 2d8+2d6+4 damage.

And there my example falls apart, because the damage output for relatively unchanged D&D means that he would need to roll within 2 points of max to kill him.  I actually would prefer a VP/WP system for something like this, since it would provide a more accurate display of chopping them up vs feeling tired.

Quote from: CRKrueger;569605However, it's not as if the fights themselves are so wildly over the top unrealistic that there isn't anything mechanical we could try to emulate in a combat system.  Or do you disagree there?

I had problems with the Rob Roy fight.

Some are minor, like someone needing to tell Cunningham that his sword had a point and that he just might want to use it instead of nothing but shallow slashes. But we can put that down to ego as it's clear that Cunningham was more interested in making Roy look bad than he was winning. Clearly he was a fool.


A more serious problem is the ending when a winded man suffering from blood loss manages to hang onto a naked blade (using his off hand)- and Cunningham who has a fine and solid grip on the hilt is unable to pull it directly out of Roy's hand as Roy slowly reaches for his dropped sword? We can put this down to surprise (or in HERO terms, a successful Presence Attack by Roy). But it still caused me problems as I personally didn't buy into there being a huge strength difference between the two actors.


Thus picking a system to model this fight is harder than it should be.

HERO System would work, and with the application of Psy Limits for Cunningham (Overconfidence, plus 'must humiliate his foe') you can model Cunningham's poor tactics. A final Presence Attack leaves him open for the killing blow.

Age of Heroes offers no mechanics requiring Cunningham to be stupid, and thus the GM would have to play him stupid on his own.  It would also leave Roy with an uphill task in hanging onto Cunningham's blade like that (but still within possibility, especally if he had the Ignore Serious Wounds Hero Ability). However the player would likely come away thinking the GM had given him the fight.


The 13th warrior battle is very easy to do in Age of Heroes or HERO, if one assumes the shields are dueling shields and thus made to be broken. Otherwise shields just don't break apart like that so easily in either game.


Age of Heroes is in general quite acceptable for duels although it was intended for group fights and not really one-on-one battles. And is excellent for showing a range of battles even between near equals, running from very short, to very long. Thus we seen engagements like this, and like this.

HERO works for duels, but I don't consider it to be good fit. The lack of automatic active defenses works against it leaving players the choice of using their actions for defense (and if successful getting going first next time and forcing the defense choice on their opponent) or leaving themselves open. If there's a Speed difference (someone gets more actions)- they are too heavily favored IMO. HERO works best with superpowers and gunfights in my view.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;569653I think that the biggest problem is with simulating the relative frailty of the human body with regards to chopping it up.

In both those examples, the loser was untouched until the final blow that killed him.  If you're using a hp model, then you're going to want to be doing the fight at relatively low levels so that a couple hits will disable, or have some kind of mechanic for higher damage output.

In the scope of the 13th Warrior duel (using D&D, but don't lump me in with that Gygax Fanboy) - Herger is referred to as a Skald, but rather than making him a Bard, I'd go with Fighter/Rogue; another alternative, if this is a no-magic environment, would be to swap the bardiac music and spell class features for Rogue sneak attacks and make him a Bard, which works better, I think.  He's an experienced fighter, so we'll say he's 8th level. (~30hp, +7/+2 ATK, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Power Attack)

His opponent, Angus(? I think.. can't remember) is a younger guy, much less experienced, but strong.  I'd give him 4th level fighter with a high str. (~30 hp, +8 ATK, Power Attack, Cleave, WF/WS: Sword)

So the duel begins, and Herger's player informs the DM that he's going to be fighting defensively but using Bluff to seem to be hurt anytime the shield is struck (it's a hp system, so in theory he doesn't need blood to have lost hp...)  He makes a few good bluff rolls, then declares that he's going to seem to be at exactly 0.  He's performing a feint maneuver, and drops his shield in the process.  Angus moves in for the Coup, and Herger makes a sneak attack, calling shot to attempt to induce a critical (I'm playing in some house rules here, but you asked how I'd do it.)  Since Angus is flat footed against the attack, Hergor rolls enough to threaten a crit (I use 10 higher than the number required to hit, but at a -3 for declaring you're doing it), and does his 2d8+2d6+4 damage.

And there my example falls apart, because the damage output for relatively unchanged D&D means that he would need to roll within 2 points of max to kill him.  I actually would prefer a VP/WP system for something like this, since it would provide a more accurate display of chopping them up vs feeling tired.

This is the part that GURPS handles quite well. Vitality does not scale with martial skill so an average man has 10 hp or so and a really skilled fencer might still have 10 hp. An average damage cutting or impaling attack to a normal man is almost enough to incapacitate him,  so the system works quite well as one where only a single blow is landed.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;569689This is the part that GURPS handles quite well. Vitality does not scale with martial skill so an average man has 10 hp or so and a really skilled fencer might still have 10 hp. An average damage cutting or impaling attack to a normal man is almost enough to incapacitate him,  so the system works quite well as one where only a single blow is landed.

I agree.  GURPS or Hero would be very good for it.  I played a duelist in a Hero game based around Nausicaa at one point and it was very easy to simulate the differing styles when buying martial skill modifiers.  I don't know GURPS well enough to remember that aspect of it, but the low hp to damage of the weapons and the differentiation of cutting vs stabbing allows a lot of good simulation.

Has anyone read and/or played Pirates and Plunder (Yaquinto Publications, 1982)?

A review in White Dwarf claims:

Quote from: White Dwarf #36This game could also recreate the Three Musketeers milieu and some of R E Howard's later stories.

It received a score of 10/10 and this caught my eye:

Quote from: White Dwarf #36This is a good game, because it is full of atmosphere and the rules can be as simple or complex as you want.  The rules cover tactical and strategic situations and also pirate amusements like gambling, target shooting, arm wrestling, Irish Standown and drinking contests.  Not to be missed, is the superbly euphemistic section on tea, crumpets and professional conversationalisits.

Quote from: Rum Cove;569970Has anyone read and/or played Pirates and Plunder (Yaquinto Publications, 1982)?

A review in White Dwarf claims:



It received a score of 10/10 and this caught my eye:

Pirates and Plunder was the worst game I ever bought....

But the problme might be with the way its constructed. The rules for chargen work within a predefined railroad scenario, rather like the start of Fallout on the XBox.
Also the base rules are missing detail I woudl require for a pirate game. Liek any information about ships for example....

The one I'm using now has (for lack of a better term) an 'advantage' track for each duelist, which is increased or decreased based on the moves they make and how successful they are at them,. When yours reaches 10 (or some other end value) you die, or your opponent can declare some other appropriate outcome. In addition to the specific moves, you or your opponent can also declare a condition, which resets your advantage track to 0 + the total number of conditions you have. So you can choose to take conditions which gradually disable you, or risk having your track go to 10 or above on your opponent's next move.

BTW, I use these tracks for a LOT of other situations beyond dueling.

Quote from: daniel_ream;569643Bringing this back to RPGs, trying to derive a set of mechanics to model a specific complicated behaviour - like a sword fight - is likely to give you mechanics that sorta-kinda-work, but then just as often give you weird results.  The trick is to find those simple rules from which the complex behaviour naturally flows.

And that's the difference between good and bad design

Quote from: jibbajibba;569995Pirates and Plunder was the worst game I ever bought....

Thank you, I'll take your word for it.

Quote from: TrueGygaxFan;570151I was introduced to a game called Dread today that I think would make a very good swashbuckling game.  The idea behind Dread is that when you do something you also have to play Jenga, so it's very scary!  I think this would make for very tense duels and even other scenes like in The Princess Bride you could do Jenga for swordfighting or to see if you have an immunity to iocaine powder.

13 or a total retard. You decide.

Troll from SA would be my guess.

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;570178Troll from SA would be my guess.

Yeah an SA Goon or RPGInformer

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;570178Troll from SA would be my guess.

Nah. I think that they'd be a bit less obvious than that. Well, unless it's Corley - that guy has enough butt-hurt over being banned from here that he won't walk straight for a year.

On-topic, which games have a decent fencing/duelling system?

Quote from: CRKrueger;570182Yeah an SA Goon or RPGInformer

Daedalus/RPGinformer wouldn't have the self-control to pull this off. This is a guy doing something for the lulz, not revenge.

RPGPundit

Transmedia games are usually interesting.