Cross-posted to the Historical RPG thread on tBP:

Historical RPGing is and will probably always be a niche market. The problem is that previous to recently, there was no way to cost-effectively sell to that market. Now, with pdf and POD options, there is. That means two things:

Those in the market will have a lot more options, very soon. They are already starting to appear.

There is a good chance that we can grow the niche.

Very few gamers "grew up" on historical gaming, because the market was too small to sustain a full bore three-tier distribution. It produced a closed feedback loop - why look for something that isn't there -> why produce something that no-one's looking for. Now, with current micro-press marketing options, the niche is viable again. This means more people will be exposed to historical gaming, and we may pick up a few non-gamers interested in the history.

Here's hoping the gamble works.

-clash

I can think of lots of enthralling periods that require absolutely no magic, psionics, anachronisms or other weirdness to make great game settings, so I'd sure be interested.  The problem, however, is that you need to find a group of people that are equally interested in the era -- no more, and no less.  Less interested than you are, and they screw up the setting by adding out-of-period elements; and more interested than you, and they bore you to tears with minutia.  That's if the game doesn't devolve into an argument about authenticity first.  

For this reason, I think the most promising historical RPGs will be the ones that are either created for very small groups (say, GM plus 1 to 3 players) or provide options and advice for this type of micro-campaign.

Excellent point Anemone!

This may help: I've had great success with my own - moderate sized at 5-7 - band of cutthroats by playing a relevant dvd for them before the first game, like Master and Commander before starting up In Harm's Way, or The Blue Max before starting up Aces in Spades. They jumped right in with both feet once they "got" the setting. BTW, my group's ages are 11, 16, 16, 18, 20, and 50, and I'm the only historical junkie.

-clash

You know what point in history I think is neglected by RPG's. The 1950's. Theres one or two out there. But they are mostly about atomic monsters and other B-movie fare. While I like that sort of thing. I think that straight historical advetures would be great. One of the military roleplaying opportunities missed is the Korea War. Be it in the trenches facing the North Koreans and Chinese. Or fighting Russian piloted MiG's in the air. Then there the general intrigue of the cold war. Spy's and skirmishes between the super powers and proxies. Not to mention stuff in the US. Such as the House Committee on Un-American Activities. With senator Joeseph McCarthy at the helm of the communist witch hunt. Or Noir style detective and crime dramas. Like the movies The Asphalt Jungle, D.O.A., The Big Heat, or Touch of evil.

That would indeed be cool. I did a lot of research into the era when writing Cold Space.

-clash

Fascinating periods I'd love to play*, off the top of my head:

• Akhenaton's rise and fall
• Kingdom of Aksum
• 2nd century BC Rome, Punic and Macedonian Wars
• Mayan Empire
• Chinese Three Kingdoms period
• Nara Japan
• Umayyad Caliphate
• Benin Empire
• Renaissance, especially in Italy
• Tulip mania (mid-1630s)
• Meiji Japan
• 1968

Argh, can't stop typing!  

* Note that I'm saying play, not live in...

Quote from: AnemoneFascinating periods I'd love to play*, off the top of my head:

• Akhenaton's rise and fall
• Kingdom of Aksum
• 2nd century BC Rome, Punic and Macedonian Wars
• Mayan Empire
• Chinese Three Kingdoms period
• Nara Japan
• Umayyad Caliphate
• Benin Empire
• Renaissance, especially in Italy
• Tulip mania (mid-1630s)
• Meiji Japan
• 1968

Argh, can't stop typing!  

* Note that I'm saying play, not live in...

I'd play in any one of those! That matches my "Want to play in" list pretty well.

* I lived through one of 'em, and I wouldn't again by choice...

-clash

Anecdote regarding the difference in levels of interest for historical accuracy: a few years ago when Godlike came out (yes, I know it's not a historical RPG, bear with me!), one guy in my gaming group decided he would run it.  He announced that he was setting it in Finland.  My husband and I asked whether we would be fighting alongside Nazi Talents.  The would-be GM was bewildered -- and we rapidly discovered that he had no idea what Finland had been doing during WWII, or that it had fought alongside Germany against the USSR.  "I just thought it'd be fun to beat up nazis," he said.  "Everyone loves to beat on nazis."

We politely excused ourselves.

Quote from: Anemone...we rapidly discovered that he had no idea what Finland had been doing during WWII, or that it had fought alongside Germany against the USSR.  "I just thought it'd be fun to beat up nazis," he said.  "Everyone loves to beat on nazis."

Well, it's true.  I'm beating up on a nazi at this very moment and having a grand time of it.  Granted, it's making it difficult to type, but, whatever.

This anecdote actually goes a long way toward explaining why historical or even contemporary real-world gaming isn't more popular -- the anxiety about getting caught doing it wrong.  In a setting that emulates an historical period without attempting to simulate it alleviates that anxiety, and helps dismiss the anthropological nitpicking of the likes of me as needless pedantry.

Playing Roman legionnaires is cool.  Going to war on elephants is double-plus cool!  Oh'p!  It was the Carthaginians who used war elephants and not the Romans?  Crap, that's no fun.

All that said, I'm a great fan of "real-world" roleplaying, even though I've done precious little of it over the course of my gaming career.  Even without slavish attention to detail, I think it's a wonderful opportunity for fun and even (gasp!) education.

!i!

Very true.  I love grabbing the opportunity to do a little bit of research about a period and culture in order to get into the feel of the game.

And it's sometimes hard to distinguish between pedantry and History 101, depending on one's personal interest in the setting -- though I draw the line at a GM giving his official pitch or even (also something I've encountered in unhappy past games) running his first game without checking the most basic facts about the setting.  :deflated:

Quote from: AnemoneAnd it's sometimes hard to distinguish between pedantry and History 101, depending on one's personal interest in the setting -- though I draw the line at a GM giving his official pitch or even (also something I've encountered in unhappy past games) running his first game without checking the most basic facts about the setting.  :deflated:

Bluto: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAll that said, I'm a great fan of "real-world" roleplaying, even though I've done precious little of it over the course of my gaming career.  Even without slavish attention to detail, I think it's a wonderful opportunity for fun and even (gasp!) education.

!i!

This is a very good point. I have to admit I'm pretty new to historical RPGs. Oh don't get me wrong, I've run numerous real world adventures set in different eras - my current OtE campaign is a good example of this - but precious few historical RPGs. My IHW campaign for instance ignores gender roles - a very important fact - but other then that is historically accurate. I know that when I run my Aces campaign it woul be very authentic

I think one of the things designers could, is to include more background info - online links would be really cool - and examples of the kinds of historical games that could be run with the system.

Also, IMO designers could give examples of wandering off the reservation. I don't mean completly abandoning historical context, but rather interesting side treks that would make gamers who think that running historical games would be a pretty "dry" experience think otherwise.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RAlso, IMO designers could give examples of wandering off the reservation. I don't mean completly abandoning historical context, but rather interesting side treks that would make gamers who think that running historical games would be a pretty "dry" experience think otherwise.

I'm not a huge fan of GURPS, but I've always appreciated how, toward the end of their setting books, they include possible tie-ins to other setting books.  Some are quite thoughtful, others not so much.  Ken Hite has also been good for this sort of thing in his articles, suggesting how one focal setting may lead to a related but otherwise unconnected adventure set against the same period, but in a different place.

!i!

Exactly Ian.

Just another quick point. I think history and historical RPGs is very often presented in dualistic terms. I think this robs it of some of it's complexity. I don't really know where I'm going with this point, but IMO it seems relevent to the discussion. I'll have to think more about this and come up with something more concrete.

Regards,
David R

I have often talked about getting my Respublica game polished up for publishing but I often have a rough time justifying it even with a long tail market. I would have magic but more from a stand point of psychological effects than true fantasy magic. So, an Augur would divine the victory of an army and give it a moral boost or a Oracle make a personal divination and that person, should they fail their "resistance" receive bonuses if the divination was followed.

I like to shoot for modeling some tricky stuff in historical games. The success I have seen on this front is when you forget about it being historical and realize you are playing a game, not giving a history lecture. You do not need a group of historians to enjoy a historical setting as long as you do ot make the session about history.

Bill