Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages

Hzilong · February 20, 2023, 08:38:03 AM

This thread is pretty cool. I saw a couple sources listed for England, but does anyone have handy references/sources for historical prices from other parts of the world like the Ottoman Empire or Korea. Researching stuff for my own Chinese-esque setting has been a pain in the ass since currency was all over the place depending on the dynasty and a bunch of the records showed wages that were calculated in terms of "dan" (Chinese weight unit) with little to no mention of coinage or other currency.

LordBP · February 20, 2023, 09:02:35 AM

Quote from: Hzilong on February 20, 2023, 08:38:03 AM
This thread is pretty cool. I saw a couple sources listed for England, but does anyone have handy references/sources for historical prices from other parts of the world like the Ottoman Empire or Korea. Researching stuff for my own Chinese-esque setting has been a pain in the ass since currency was all over the place depending on the dynasty and a bunch of the records showed wages that were calculated in terms of "dan" (Chinese weight unit) with little to no mention of coinage or other currency.

Language issues would be the biggest thing as you would have to know the local language written at the time (Middle English is fairly close to Modern English, so it's not too big of a leap).

One thing that I've found in my research that might help you, is that even in England, they went by weight of coin versus the actual coins. That way shaving of coins didn't have much of an effect.

Wtrmute · February 20, 2023, 12:42:47 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on February 20, 2023, 08:38:03 AM
This thread is pretty cool. I saw a couple sources listed for England, but does anyone have handy references/sources for historical prices from other parts of the world like the Ottoman Empire or Korea. Researching stuff for my own Chinese-esque setting has been a pain in the ass since currency was all over the place depending on the dynasty and a bunch of the records showed wages that were calculated in terms of "dan" (Chinese weight unit) with little to no mention of coinage or other currency.

This is a problem in Europe, too, since lack of political centralisation means that any warlord who manage to style himself a king could mint his own coins with whatever name he preferred. Generally, you're better off measuring things in units of weight of silver, whether the "dan" you mention or the "liang" that is generally used in Xianxia novels. This way you can ignore the problem of coins being introduced, debased and then abandoned as the years went on.

Regarding the problem of silver inflation, it wasn't until the Great Discoveries era when American silver started flooding Europe and, through the commerce with the Ming, China. Before then the silver supply was basically constant, which was a problem since the economy tended to grow; the Old World was facing the beginnings of a silver crisis due to deflation!

LordBP · February 20, 2023, 05:41:55 PM

More items I pulled out today.

Item Year Pound Shilling Pence Total Shilling Total Pence Silver(g) Gold(g) DnD sp DnD gp
Ship 1354 20 400.00 4,800.00 5,328.000 464.111 117.462 10.232
Ship 1354 10 200.00 2,400.00 2,664.000 232.056 58.731 5.116
Boat 1354 20 20.00 240.00 266.400 23.206 5.873 0.512
Boat 1354 4 80.00 960.00 1,065.600 92.822 23.492 2.046
Boat 1354 66 8 66.67 800.00 888.000 77.352 19.577 1.705
600 Oak boards (Wainscot) from Estland 1354 4 0.13 1.60 1.776 0.155 0.039 0.003
4 ½ Lasts and 4 Ox-Hides (1 Last = 200 hides) 1354 83 4 8 1.84 22.10 24.528 2.137 0.541 0.047
19 Bales of Alum 1354 13 13.68 164.21 182.274 15.877 4.018 0.350
30 Bales of Madder (Plant for dyeing) 1354 28 6 8 18.89 226.67 251.600 21.916 5.547 0.483
4 Bundles (meise) of Copper 1354 7 15 38.75 465.00 516.150 44.961 11.379 0.991
Cask 15 Cloths of divers colors of the fabric of Curtrik 1354 25 33.33 400.00 444.000 38.676 9.789 0.853
100 Oak boards (Wainscot) from Estland – 1 mark 1354 160 0.13 1.60 1.776 0.155 0.039 0.003
6 barrels of 'wodaxes' (Potash) 1354 30 5.00 60.00 66.600 5.801 1.468 0.128
2 Tuns Spanish wine 1354 8 80.00 960.00 1,065.600 92.822 23.492 2.046
120 Quarters of Wheat – 1 quarter (8 Bushels) 1354 30 5.00 60.00 66.600 5.801 1.468 0.128
200 stones of woad (indigo dye) 1354 9 13 4 0.97 11.60 12.876 1.122 0.284 0.025
6 Tuns of wine from Harflete 1354 6 20.00 240.00 266.400 23.206 5.873 0.512
6 Tuns of wine from Depe 1354 8 26.67 320.00 355.200 30.941 7.831 0.682
Boat 1354 20 20.00 240.00 266.400 23.206 5.873 0.512
Little boat 1354 60 60.00 720.00 799.200 69.617 17.619 1.535
Gallon of wine sold in Taverns (was 6 pence) 1354 8 0.67 8.00 8.880 0.774 0.196 0.017
Ship 1354 10 13 4 213.33 2,560.00 2,841.600 247.526 62.647 5.457
Ship – 10 marks 1354 1600 133.33 1,600.00 1,776.000 154.704 39.154 3.411
Ship 1354 10 200.00 2,400.00 2,664.000 232.056 58.731 5.116
Ship 1354 55 1,100.00 13,200.00 14,652.000 1,276.307 323.021 28.138
Ship 1354 20 400.00 4,800.00 5,328.000 464.111 117.462 10.232
6 sacks of wool 1354 23 6 8 77.78 933.33 1,036.000 90.244 22.840 1.990
33 sarplars of wool 1354 52 12 4 31.89 382.67 424.760 37.000 9.364 0.816

Hzilong · February 20, 2023, 11:40:40 PM

I did a bit more digging nd found some interesting tables in a book called The Chinese Market Economy 1000-1500. Sorry if this is hijacking the thread. I can start a different one if LordBP wants.

LordBP · February 21, 2023, 05:47:29 AM

Quote from: Hzilong on February 20, 2023, 11:40:40 PM
I did a bit more digging nd found some interesting tables in a book called The Chinese Market Economy 1000-1500. Sorry if this is hijacking the thread. I can start a different one if LordBP wants.

This one is fine. Would be interesting to see costs in silver and gold at the same time period in different regions.

RPGPundit · February 21, 2023, 07:39:01 AM

The price list in Lion & Dragon attempts to be as authentic as possible, though this requires making a number of calculated guesses and gross estimations.

Ghostmaker · February 21, 2023, 08:08:12 AM

Quote from: Effete on February 19, 2023, 09:35:44 PM
Yeah, a bulb of garlic cost 5 gold. I guess "because vampires, her-dee-der", but then geezus DnD must have a huge vampire problem to inflate costs that high.

It's not the vampires. It's that certain spices and vegetables were hard to get in a pre-freight or industrialization world. Garlic isn't native to typical European settings, so it makes sense it'd be more expensive. Some exotic spices can be literally worth their weight in gold.

(Whatever its flaws, 2E's Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue actually illustrates this, with merchandise from further out being unusually expensive. Even in a magic heavy setting like FR, they can't ship barrels of tofu.)

Effete · February 21, 2023, 09:43:21 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 21, 2023, 08:08:12 AM
It's not the vampires. It's that certain spices and vegetables were hard to get in a pre-freight or industrialization world. Garlic isn't native to typical European settings, so it makes sense it'd be more expensive. Some exotic spices can be literally worth their weight in gold.

Ehhh... given that DnD is largely anachronistic and not historically accurate in the least, I'd be willing to concede this point in the broader context. But garlic has been very well documented in Greece since at least the 11th century BC, and in Rome since the 1st century AD. While true that the earliest records of it appearing in Europe date to 7th century, I find it difficult to believe that it took over 600 years to make it's way up from Rome, especially considering how important the plant was in medicinal applications. The migratory period of Europe was well known for having poor record-keeping, so it would make a lot of sense that no records appear until things started settling down.

Regardless, even if we accept that garlic only came to Europe in the 7th century, DnD features plate armor, which wasn't in use until at least the 12th-13th century. That is 500-600 years since garlic was introduced to the region, and considering how robust the plant is, it would not need to be imported.

Even of we ignore all of this (admittedly speculative) evidence, it still doesn't explain why the authors of core DnD rulesets included garlic as the only vegetable on the entire gear list. Why not saffron or cinnamon or other exotic, non-native herbs/spices? It's highly suggestive the reason was, in fact, as a tool against vampires. Same reason "mallet and stakes" and "wolfsbane" appear on the list.

SOURCE

Wtrmute · February 21, 2023, 12:37:52 PM

Quote from: Effete on February 21, 2023, 09:43:21 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 21, 2023, 08:08:12 AM
It's not the vampires. It's that certain spices and vegetables were hard to get in a pre-freight or industrialization world. Garlic isn't native to typical European settings, so it makes sense it'd be more expensive. Some exotic spices can be literally worth their weight in gold.

Ehhh... given that DnD is largely anachronistic and not historically accurate in the least, I'd be willing to concede this point in the broader context. But garlic has been very well documented in Greece since at least the 11th century BC, and in Rome since the 1st century AD. While true that the earliest records of it appearing in Europe date to 7th century, I find it difficult to believe that it took over 600 years to make it's way up from Rome, especially considering how important the plant was in medicinal applications. The migratory period of Europe was well known for having poor record-keeping, so it would make a lot of sense that no records appear until things started settling down.

Regardless, even if we accept that garlic only came to Europe in the 7th century, DnD features plate armor, which wasn't in use until at least the 12th-13th century. That is 500-600 years since garlic was introduced to the region, and considering how robust the plant is, it would not need to be imported.

Even of we ignore all of this (admittedly speculative) evidence, it still doesn't explain why the authors of core DnD rulesets included garlic as the only vegetable on the entire gear list. Why not saffron or cinnamon or other exotic, non-native herbs/spices? It's highly suggestive the reason was, in fact, as a tool against vampires. Same reason "mallet and stakes" and "wolfsbane" appear on the list.

SOURCE

Indeed, and considering the Romans were very fond of garlic (they even had a proverb ubi allium, ibi Roma: "Where there is (the scent of) garlic, there is Rome"), I find it extremely unlikely that you wouldn't find garlic in Roman Britain (assuming that Italy is not a typical European setting), and thence, Britain through the Middle Ages.

I mean, it is true that even today, garlic is a lot more expensive (5×, perhaps?) than onions, which are a close cousin. But fifty days' worth of an unskilled labourer's salary for a single bulb is, perhaps, a bit much.

mAcular Chaotic · February 21, 2023, 01:53:13 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 21, 2023, 12:37:52 PM
Quote from: Effete on February 21, 2023, 09:43:21 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 21, 2023, 08:08:12 AM
It's not the vampires. It's that certain spices and vegetables were hard to get in a pre-freight or industrialization world. Garlic isn't native to typical European settings, so it makes sense it'd be more expensive. Some exotic spices can be literally worth their weight in gold.

Ehhh... given that DnD is largely anachronistic and not historically accurate in the least, I'd be willing to concede this point in the broader context. But garlic has been very well documented in Greece since at least the 11th century BC, and in Rome since the 1st century AD. While true that the earliest records of it appearing in Europe date to 7th century, I find it difficult to believe that it took over 600 years to make it's way up from Rome, especially considering how important the plant was in medicinal applications. The migratory period of Europe was well known for having poor record-keeping, so it would make a lot of sense that no records appear until things started settling down.

Regardless, even if we accept that garlic only came to Europe in the 7th century, DnD features plate armor, which wasn't in use until at least the 12th-13th century. That is 500-600 years since garlic was introduced to the region, and considering how robust the plant is, it would not need to be imported.

Even of we ignore all of this (admittedly speculative) evidence, it still doesn't explain why the authors of core DnD rulesets included garlic as the only vegetable on the entire gear list. Why not saffron or cinnamon or other exotic, non-native herbs/spices? It's highly suggestive the reason was, in fact, as a tool against vampires. Same reason "mallet and stakes" and "wolfsbane" appear on the list.

SOURCE

Indeed, and considering the Romans were very fond of garlic (they even had a proverb ubi allium, ibi Roma: "Where there is (the scent of) garlic, there is Rome"), I find it extremely unlikely that you wouldn't find garlic in Roman Britain (assuming that Italy is not a typical European setting), and thence, Britain through the Middle Ages.

I mean, it is true that even today, garlic is a lot more expensive (5×, perhaps?) than onions, which are a close cousin. But fifty days' worth of an unskilled labourer's salary for a single bulb is, perhaps, a bit much.

I always imagined these as "adventurer's prices." You know, some out of towners with a lot of money show up, and are in dire need of some garlic to fight off a vampire -- of course the vendor is going to upsell them.

LordBP · February 21, 2023, 09:30:25 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 21, 2023, 07:39:01 AM
The price list in Lion & Dragon attempts to be as authentic as possible, though this requires making a number of calculated guesses and gross estimations.

What time frame is the Lion & Dragon based on?

Wtrmute · February 22, 2023, 10:11:56 AM

Quote from: LordBP on February 21, 2023, 09:30:25 PM
What time frame is the Lion & Dragon based on?

The period of the War of the Roses, which is the second half of the 15th Century.

tenbones · February 22, 2023, 10:19:55 AM

Big thumbs up on this thread. LOVE IT.

estar · February 22, 2023, 03:52:54 PM