Been reading through a bunch of old books for some historical pricing of items during the Late Middle Ages and thought I would share what I've found so far (some of it was taken from the Medieval Price List and others from the Calendar of Close Rolls for England).

I've included the historical pricing, the conversion to pure silver and/or gold based on historical ratio at the time, and the DnD conversion (based on 1 coin is 1/10 lb).

Biggest thing I've found is that a sheaf of arrows should be around the cost of an actual longbow and not as cheap as they are in most games.



Item                                                 Year      Pound      Shilling      Pence      Total Shilling       Total Pence       Silver(g)      Gold(g)      DnD sp      DnD gp
Sword (Peasants)                                     1345                               6            0.50                   6.00          7.284          0.580        0.161       0.013
Mail                                                 1150                 100                        100.00                 1,200.00      1,618.800                   35.688     
Ready Made Milanese armor                            1441      8          6             8            166.67                 2,000.00      1,798.000      174.056      39.639      3.837
Squire's armor                                       1441      6          16            8            136.67                 1,640.00      1,474.360      142.726      32.504      3.147
Bascinet                                             1369                 16            8            16.67                  200.00        222.000        19.338       4.894       0.426
Knight's armor                                       1374      16         6             8            326.67                 3,920.00      4,351.200      379.024      95.928      8.356
                                                           
Longbow – white                                      1341                               12           1.00                   12.00         16.188                      0.357     
Longbow – painted                                    1341                               18           1.50                   18.00         24.282                      0.535     
24 arrows (sheaf) steeled                            1341                               14           1.17                   14.00         18.886                      0.416     
24 arrows (sheaf) non-steeled                        1341                               12           1.00                   12.00         16.188                      0.357     
300 sheaves arrows                                   1359      21         5                          1.42                   17.00         18.870         1.644        0.416       0.036
400 sheaves arrows                                   1359      28         6             8            1.42                   17.00         18.870         1.644        0.416       0.036
500 sheaves arrows                                   1359      35         8             8            1.42                   17.01         18.879         1.645        0.416       0.036
600 sheaves arrows                                   1359      42         10                         1.42                   17.00         18.870         1.644        0.416       0.036
700 sheaves arrows                                   1359      49         11            8            1.42                   17.00         18.870         1.644        0.416       0.036
800 sheaves arrows                                   1359      56         13            4            1.42                   17.00         18.870         1.644        0.416       0.036
900 sheaves arrows                                   1359      63         15                         1.42                   17.00         18.870         1.644        0.416       0.036
400 painted bows, 200 white bows, 1000 sheaves       1359      145        16            8            2,916.67               35,000.00                       
200 painted bows, 400 white bows, 700 sheaves        1359      109        11            8            2,191.67               26,300.00                       
Painted Bow                                          1359                               36           3.00                   36.00         39.960         3.481        0.881       0.077
White Bow                                            1359                               18           1.50                   18.00         19.980         1.740        0.440       0.038
                                                           
                                                           
War Horse                                            1250      80                                    1,600.00               19,200.00     25,900.800                  571.015     
Riding Horse                                         1250      10                                    200.00                 2,400.00      3,237.600                   71.377     
Draft Horse                                          1250                 15                         315.00                 3,780.00      5,099.220                   112.419     
Draft Horse                                          1368                 10                         210.00                 2,520.00      2,797.200      243.659      61.668      5.372
Plough Mares                                         1368                 8                          168.00                 2,016.00      2,237.760      194.927      49.334      4.297
                                                           
                                                           
cow                                                  1350                 9             5            9.42                   113.00        137.182        10.931       3.024       0.241
cow                                                  1368                 10                         10.00                  120.00        133.200        11.603       2.937       0.256
cow bull                                             1368                 10                         10.00                  120.00        133.200        11.603       2.937       0.256
ox                                                   1350                 13            1.25         13.10                  157.25        190.902        15.211       4.209       0.335
ox                                                   1368                 13            4            13.33                  160.00        177.600        15.470       3.915       0.341
ox steer                                             1368                 6             8            6.67                   80.00         88.800         7.735        1.958       0.171
sheep                                                1350                 1             5            1.42                   17.00         20.638         1.644        0.455       0.036
sheep (muttons)                                      1368                               18           1.50                   18.00         19.980         1.740        0.440       0.038
sheep (ewes)                                         1368                               15           1.25                   15.00         16.650         1.450        0.367       0.032
sheep (hogs and tegs) (lambs)                        1368                               12           1.00                   12.00         13.320         1.160        0.294       0.026
pig                                                  1338                 2                          2.00                   24.00         26.640                      0.587     
pig (boars)                                          1368                 3                          3.00                   36.00         39.960         3.481        0.881       0.077
pig (swine)                                          1368                 3                          3.00                   36.00         39.960         3.481        0.881       0.077
pig                                                  1368                               15           1.25                   15.00         16.650         1.450        0.367       0.032
fowl                                                 1338                               1            0.08                   1.00          1.349                       0.030     
chicken                                              1350                               0.5          0.04                   0.50          0.607          0.048        0.013       0.001
goose                                                1375                               7.5          0.63                   7.50          8.325          0.725        0.184       0.016
                                                           
                                                           
Wheat – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)                        1368                 6             8            6.67                   80.00         88.800         7.735        1.958       0.171
Rye – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)                          1368                 4             6            4.50                   54.00         59.940         5.221        1.321       0.115
Barley – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)                       1368                 4                          4.00                   48.00         53.280         4.641        1.175       0.102
Peas and Vetch – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)               1368                 3             4            3.33                   40.00         44.400         3.868        0.979       0.085
Oats – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)                         1368                 2             6            2.50                   30.00         33.300         2.901        0.734       0.064
                                                           
                                                           
Pepper – 1 lb                                        1371                               12           1.00                   12.00         13.320         1.160        0.294       0.026
Cumin – 2 lb                                         1371                               3            0.25                   3.00          3.330          0.290        0.073       0.006

Converted it to a document, will upload it to GDrive latter or tomorrow, there's some weird stuff going so I might have corrupted the data location, but pretty useful, thanks.

Some additional information I have on the coins. 

Trying to find exact dimensions are pretty much impossible, so having to derive some of them.

Biggest thing I learned there is that DnD coins are massive compared to real coins and not really even close to reality of what things cost. 

For example, the Penny that I have dimensions for is around the size of a dime, but about 1/3 to 1/4 of the thickness.


Year      Name                Weight      Pure Silver      Pure gold      Pence      Ratio      Coins/LB      Diam      Thick
1158      Penny               1.458       1.349                                                 311.11        15.00     0.73
1344      Penny               1.312       1.214                                                 345.73           
1344      Gold Double Florin  6.998                        6.962          72         12.55      64.82           
1351      Penny               1.200       1.110                                                 377.99           
1351      Gold Noble          7.776                        7.736          80         11.48      58.33           
          Gold Half Noble                                               
          Gold Quarter Noble                                               
1412      Penny               0.972      0.899                                                  466.67           
1412      Gold Half Noble     3.499                        3.481          40         10.33      129.63           
          Gold Quarter Noble                                               
1464      Penny               0.777      0.719                                                  583.55           
1464      Gold Half Angel     2.591                        2.578          40         11.16      175.03           

Quote from: LordBP on February 18, 2023, 05:39:47 PM
Some additional information I have on the coins. 

Trying to find exact dimensions are pretty much impossible, so having to derive some of them.

Biggest thing I learned there is that DnD coins are massive compared to real coins and not really even close to reality of what things cost. 

For example, the Penny that I have dimensions for is around the size of a dime, but about 1/3 to 1/4 of the thickness.


Year      Name                Weight      Pure Silver      Pure gold      Pence      Ratio      Coins/LB      Diam      Thick
1158      Penny               1.458       1.349                                                 311.11        15.00     0.73
1344      Penny               1.312       1.214                                                 345.73           
1344      Gold Double Florin  6.998                        6.962          72         12.55      64.82           
1351      Penny               1.200       1.110                                                 377.99           
1351      Gold Noble          7.776                        7.736          80         11.48      58.33           
          Gold Half Noble                                               
          Gold Quarter Noble                                               
1412      Penny               0.972      0.899                                                  466.67           
1412      Gold Half Noble     3.499                        3.481          40         10.33      129.63           
          Gold Quarter Noble                                               
1464      Penny               0.777      0.719                                                  583.55           
1464      Gold Half Angel     2.591                        2.578          40         11.16      175.03           

Yeah, ancient coins are minute. In movies gold coins are the size of quarters, or even silver dollars. In reality they could be smaller than the nail on your pinkie.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 18, 2023, 05:53:15 PM

Quote from: LordBP on February 18, 2023, 05:39:47 PM
Some additional information I have on the coins. 

Trying to find exact dimensions are pretty much impossible, so having to derive some of them.

Biggest thing I learned there is that DnD coins are massive compared to real coins and not really even close to reality of what things cost. 

For example, the Penny that I have dimensions for is around the size of a dime, but about 1/3 to 1/4 of the thickness.


Year      Name                Weight      Pure Silver      Pure gold      Pence      Ratio      Coins/LB      Diam      Thick
1158      Penny               1.458       1.349                                                 311.11        15.00     0.73
1344      Penny               1.312       1.214                                                 345.73           
1344      Gold Double Florin  6.998                        6.962          72         12.55      64.82           
1351      Penny               1.200       1.110                                                 377.99           
1351      Gold Noble          7.776                        7.736          80         11.48      58.33           
          Gold Half Noble                                               
          Gold Quarter Noble                                               
1412      Penny               0.972      0.899                                                  466.67           
1412      Gold Half Noble     3.499                        3.481          40         10.33      129.63           
          Gold Quarter Noble                                               
1464      Penny               0.777      0.719                                                  583.55           
1464      Gold Half Angel     2.591                        2.578          40         11.16      175.03           

Yeah, ancient coins are minute. In movies gold coins are the size of quarters, or even silver dollars. In reality they could be smaller than the nail on your pinkie.

Yeah, I'm more finding that they are super thin to the point of almost being like paper at least for the coins I'm looking at from the time period.

Here is one of the gold nobles.

The standard Carolingian denarius was defined to weigh such that 240 could be struck to a pound of silver. What generally varied over the Middle Ages was which pound you were talking about. The Carolingian pound itself seems to have been something like 410 g, while the English used first the Tower pound (about 350 g) until it was changed to the Troy pound (about 375 g). Meanwhile, D&D silver pieces are struck fifty to an avoirdupois pound (about 455 g), so comparatively they are absolutely massive.

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 18, 2023, 09:13:32 PM
The standard Carolingian denarius was defined to weigh such that 240 could be struck to a pound of silver. What generally varied over the Middle Ages was which pound you were talking about. The Carolingian pound itself seems to have been something like 410 g, while the English used first the Tower pound (about 350 g) until it was changed to the Troy pound (about 375 g). Meanwhile, D&D silver pieces are struck fifty to an avoirdupois pound (about 455 g), so comparatively they are absolutely massive.

When did D&D go to 50 per pound?  I looked through the versions (BX, BECMI, Cyclopedia) that I had and it was all 10 to the pound.

You may find this interesting:  Money Results, especially the links in that article to his earlier articles on the subject.

D&D had gone to 50 coins per pound by 3E.  Don't know if it happened at any time in 2E, but I doubt it.

I went with a hybrid system, based on the silver standard, but using the bottom end of the silver/gold exchange rate.  That let me use "copper pennies" as a tiny bit of silver in a copper/silver alloy as 1/5th of a larger silver coin, and then use a bronze/copper allow as a "bronze farthing" at 1/4 of the copper penny.  That gives 20 of the farthings at 1 "silver star," with some of the conveniences in player attitude discussed in Delta's articles.  Though it ends up making my coins ... about the size of an American quarter.

Yet, I can use this larger silver coin as an easy conversion for the historical prices.  I can read the silver pennies (d) as copper pennies, shillings (s) as x3 as silver stars, and pounds (L) as x6 gold.  (Remembering to inflate clothes, weapons, armor, and other crafted goods to fit my setting.)

The basic issues are twofold:

- If you want several different coins of different metals, with any kind of historical nod to accuracy, you have to sacrifice coin size, or types of coins, or ease of conversion.  You can't have all three.
- Multiple types of coins of the same metal can really confuse some players.  So you have to decide if the extra confusion is worth the fidelity. 

Naturally, some people are really going to thrive on coin names and the historical sizes.  I found that having a bigger coin reinforced decisions about how many to haul out of a dungeon.  Note that this is almost entirely psychological, since I've based most of my prices as if their was a classic silver penny standard, with the weights of the metal determining how it fits.  Still, it's convenient for me to have relatively few coins per unit of encumbrance.  I think the AD&D rate of 10 per pound was more about the same thinking, and the relatively large size of the coins followed from that.

Finally, as another nod to history, you can use the "egg" as a very small unit.  It will typically be a dozen or half dozen eggs to whatever your smallest coin is.  I've got 1 bronze farthing buying 6 eggs, for example.  Point being, this is a unit of barter at the low end of the scale, that players will typically only use when destitute.  It's an easy way to give some flavor to the exchanges without burdening your system with a coin too small to have much meaning.  May be fun to have a peasant sweeten a deal by throwing in an egg or two.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 19, 2023, 10:49:41 AM
You may find this interesting:  Money Results, especially the links in that article to his earlier articles on the subject.

D&D had gone to 50 coins per pound by 3E.  Don't know if it happened at any time in 2E, but I doubt it.

I went with a hybrid system, based on the silver standard, but using the bottom end of the silver/gold exchange rate.  That let me use "copper pennies" as a tiny bit of silver in a copper/silver alloy as 1/5th of a larger silver coin, and then use a bronze/copper allow as a "bronze farthing" at 1/4 of the copper penny.  That gives 20 of the farthings at 1 "silver star," with some of the conveniences in player attitude discussed in Delta's articles.  Though it ends up making my coins ... about the size of an American quarter.

Yet, I can use this larger silver coin as an easy conversion for the historical prices.  I can read the silver pennies (d) as copper pennies, shillings (s) as x3 as silver stars, and pounds (L) as x6 gold.  (Remembering to inflate clothes, weapons, armor, and other crafted goods to fit my setting.)

The basic issues are twofold:

- If you want several different coins of different metals, with any kind of historical nod to accuracy, you have to sacrifice coin size, or types of coins, or ease of conversion.  You can't have all three.
- Multiple types of coins of the same metal can really confuse some players.  So you have to decide if the extra confusion is worth the fidelity. 

Naturally, some people are really going to thrive on coin names and the historical sizes.  I found that having a bigger coin reinforced decisions about how many to haul out of a dungeon.  Note that this is almost entirely psychological, since I've based most of my prices as if their was a classic silver penny standard, with the weights of the metal determining how it fits.  Still, it's convenient for me to have relatively few coins per unit of encumbrance.  I think the AD&D rate of 10 per pound was more about the same thinking, and the relatively large size of the coins followed from that.

Finally, as another nod to history, you can use the "egg" as a very small unit.  It will typically be a dozen or half dozen eggs to whatever your smallest coin is.  I've got 1 bronze farthing buying 6 eggs, for example.  Point being, this is a unit of barter at the low end of the scale, that players will typically only use when destitute.  It's an easy way to give some flavor to the exchanges without burdening your system with a coin too small to have much meaning.  May be fun to have a peasant sweeten a deal by throwing in an egg or two.

Yeah, I had read through his posts as I was going down the road  .  I think there is still some issues with prices in D&D when you look at costs based on the amount of metal.

Forgot that D&D went back to the D&D name after AD&D (haven't played in decades  ).

Gygax even changed up currency in his Gord the Rogue book series to the below.  Think he understood that the D&D/AD&D numbers were off.


                  Iron Drab  Br Bit Brn Zee  Cu Com  Ag Noble El Lucky Gold Orb Platinum Plate
Iron Drab         1          1/5    1/50     1/250   1/1000   1/5000   1/50000  1/55000
Brass Bit         5          1      1/10     1/50    1/200    1/1000   1/10000  1/11000
Bronze Zee        50         10     1        1/5     1/20     1/100    1/1000   1/1100
Copper Common     250        50     5        1       1/4      1/20     1/200    1/220
Silver Noble      1000       200    20       4       1        1/5      1/50     1/55
Electrum Lucky    5000       1000   100      20      5        1        1/10     1/11
Gold Orb          50000      10000  1000     200     50       10       1        10/11
Platinum Plate    55000      11000  1100     220     55       11       11/10    1

Here is my short equipment list. I vaguely remember doing tons of research to reach vaguely realistic prices, while keeping things very simple... but I'd love to know if something seems completely off.

I think they are simpler and more sensible than most OSR lists (e.g., in B/X plate armor twelve times as much as... garlic), but I can't be sure.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/02/simple-and-realistic-equipment-list.html

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 19, 2023, 07:30:18 PM
I think they are simpler and more sensible than most OSR lists (e.g., in B/X plate armor twelve times as much as... garlic), but I can't be sure.

Yeah, a bulb of garlic cost 5 gold. I guess "because vampires, her-dee-der", but then geezus DnD must have a huge vampire problem to inflate costs that high.

Economies in games have always been the stupiest part, most of them making absolutely no sense except as a form of balancing mechanics. The only reason for garlic to be 5gp is so that it would be relatively pricey to buy a lot of it before raiding the vampire's lair (or... you know, just don't give your vampires a weakness to garlic???).

I've tried in the past to create a more realistic coin economy in a fantasy game, and it just ended up fundamentally changing certain expectations. Players would have needed to get used to earning far less than they were used to in other games. 1000 gp may be a fair reward for a 1st-lvl party to split before, but with a "realistic" economy that's game-breaking.

As Steven pointed out, at some point you just need to just accept certain inconsistancies. Want to use coins as a form of "weight management?" Well then you can't have realistic size-to-value ratios. Sometimes it's better to just say, "don't think about it, it'll be fine." Then go kill some monsters.

Here's a very extensive price list from Harn, which has a silver standard and tries to approximate late dark ages or early medieval reality.

Quote from: Effete on February 19, 2023, 09:35:44 PM

I've tried in the past to create a more realistic coin economy in a fantasy game, and it just ended up fundamentally changing certain expectations. Players would have needed to get used to earning far less than they were used to in other games. 1000 gp may be a fair reward for a 1st-lvl party to split before, but with a "realistic" economy that's game-breaking.

A nice trick that helps is to go with a silver economy, leave historical prices as they were, but then read all gem and jewelry costs values as is, but in silver.  So that 50 gp gem is now 50 silver.  This means that gold is worth a lot, but finding a big bag of silver coins is worth something.  Finding gems is still helpful, even if they aren't worth all that much "gold".

Especially if you inflate some of the prices, as I mentioned earlier as I'm doing with some crafted goods.  I've got the Gambeson at 45 silver in my system, which is roughly 15 shillings in historical terms.  Meanwhile, I have a chain hauberk all the way up to 300 silver and plate mail (when you can even find it) at 600.  Not exactly historical, but closer than some games, or at least proportionate, accounting for dark age technology with magic picking up the slack.  That is, all plate mail is magical in the sense that it takes magic to produce it, thus the price.   The upshot is that unless a character's background gives them access, no one can afford the heavier armor at the start, and probably can't for some time.  Like B/X or AD&D only more so. 

You can approximate the feel of an economy with a few touches sometimes that might be too much if you tried to go those last few steps towards historical accuracy. 

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 19, 2023, 10:49:41 AM
D&D had gone to 50 coins per pound by 3E.  Don't know if it happened at any time in 2E, but I doubt it.

Looking again at the 2E PHB, on page 66 the coin types are introduced, as well as their exchange rates, but nothing in the whole chapter ("Chapter 6: Money and Equipment") mentions anything about the encumbrance of coins themselves. Chapter 10 ("Treasure") also makes no mention of the weight of coins. In either case, they imply that the DM could invent all kinds of different coins hailing from different polities, each with their own weight. That is no help, though.

However, on the "Money and Equipment" chapter of the DMG, on page 33, we have an oblique reference, when the author is explaining the situation of a mercenary captain in Aquitaine who had received coins from all sorts of places in Europe and Northern Africa, including here England:

Quote from: 2E_DMGThe English coins included the rarely seen pound, equal perhaps to one gp. More common were silver shillings, officially figured at 20 to a pound (or ½ a sp). ...

Here we see that if shillings are figured at 20 to a pound and thus worth ½ sp, then one sp is worth ⅒ of a pound, at least in 1989 when the 2E DMG was written. 10 to a pound is absolutely massive; I know of only one coin which surpasses this weight, the Portuguese dobrão which was minted in Vila Rica in Minas Gerais between 1724 and 1727 and weighed 53.8 grams (¹⅝ of a Portuguese ounce, or 8 ³/₇ to an avoirdupois pound).

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 19, 2023, 09:56:18 PM

Quote from: Effete on February 19, 2023, 09:35:44 PM

I've tried in the past to create a more realistic coin economy in a fantasy game, and it just ended up fundamentally changing certain expectations. Players would have needed to get used to earning far less than they were used to in other games. 1000 gp may be a fair reward for a 1st-lvl party to split before, but with a "realistic" economy that's game-breaking.

A nice trick that helps is to go with a silver economy, leave historical prices as they were, but then read all gem and jewelry costs values as is, but in silver.

Oh, certainly! This is what I meant by players needing to get used to the idea they will be be "earning less." Many are used to seeing rewards in gold pieces, so it requires a bit of re-training the brain to then view silver as your base currency.

The dumb part is that DnD already tries to claim it has a silver-based economy. The average weekly wage for a commoner is between 5-10 sp, varying by edition. This would mean that that 10,000 gp magic item the PC wants is the veritable equivalent of buying an entire palace and all the furnishings to go with it. This makes even less sense in later versions, where magic is nearly ubiquitous (7 out of 10 classes get access to magic). In an actual economy, the laws of supply and demand should drive magic item prices down. But they are artificially high for the sake of game balance. I'm not arguing that's a bad thing. On the contrary, the price of goods SHOULD be a balancing factor if your game rewards players with currency. What I'm saying is DnD (and nearly every game that followed it) have generally done a poor job of modeling that relationship.

(Tangent - skip if you want. This issue still exists in games that are set in more "modern" times. Or even futuristic ones. Cyperpunk Red uses a "Lifestyle" mechanic where players pay a monthy fee to cover all basic living expenses, like food, travel, etc. The lowest tier costs 100eb and assumes the player gets about two measly meals a day. However, one meal can also be purchased for 10eb. Now, quick math will tell you this is 10 meals a month before you hit that 100eb Lifestyle fee (or only 5 days of meals). It doesn't make any g'damn sense. But the entire point of the game offering individual meals for sale is for those times they are going to places where food is not readily available from a Vendit machine. The cost just represents the character preparing to venture away from the comforts of the city. But the book does a poor job explaining this, and I see players fretting over buying meals and other minor things when they should just be focused on the bigger picture.)

QuoteEspecially if you inflate some of the prices, as I mentioned earlier as I'm doing with some crafted goods.  I've got the Gambeson at 45 silver in my system, which is roughly 15 shillings in historical terms.  Meanwhile, I have a chain hauberk all the way up to 300 silver and plate mail (when you can even find it) at 600.  Not exactly historical, but closer than some games, or at least proportionate, accounting for dark age technology with magic picking up the slack.  That is, all plate mail is magical in the sense that it takes magic to produce it, thus the price.   The upshot is that unless a character's background gives them access, no one can afford the heavier armor at the start, and probably can't for some time.  Like B/X or AD&D only more so.

Sounds like you are balancing these price changes through the mechanic of backgrounds. That seems to be a much more elegant way to handle it, assuming each background offers it's own niche or mechanical advantage.

QuoteYou can approximate the feel of an economy with a few touches sometimes that might be too much if you tried to go those last few steps towards historical accuracy.

Yeah, trying to go TOO realistic, I think, is futile. In the end, it is just a game, and some balance between the characters and the mechanics should be expected. Reality isn't "fair", and if you attempt to model it into your game, your game will not be fair.