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Author Topic: The State of OSR  (Read 3657 times)

Brad

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Re: The State of OSR
« Reply #75 on: October 15, 2020, 11:26:33 am »
Just got another email that the Castles & Crusades PHB is still free: https://www.trolllord.com/tlgstore/

Melan

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Re: The State of OSR
« Reply #76 on: October 16, 2020, 04:50:32 am »
Tribalism existed in RPGs very early.  I can’t number how many times I was told the style I prefer to play was some combination of “not REAL roleplaying”; “that’s ROLL-playing”; or “dungeons are primitive, simplistic, and unrealistic.  RPGs have moved beyond that”
I distinctly remember bringing my brand new 3e PHB to the university game club - very much WOD Country - and flipping through looking at the art, when a black-clad, pale fellow with silver jewellery and a pentagram around the neck walks up to me, says "This game has no future", turns around, and walks away without a further word to lesser beings like "AD&D players". :D Hardcore, hardcore people.

That's how tribalism in the late 1990s looked like. WW was actively fanning the flames to profit from the divide, too.
Now with a Zine!
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GameDaddy

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Re: The State of OSR
« Reply #77 on: October 16, 2020, 11:20:15 am »
Traveller.
Not sure what this comment was in response to, but Traveller is a good counter example. Despite their being at least 7 version of that game, there is no equivalent to the OSR. People use products from all those versions interchangeably and there is no version purity tests (at least that I can see)

Classic Traveller, the original 1977 edition is considered the original edition. It differed significantly from the later 1981 edition, in that it did not feature a central campaign setting, "The Imperium" but instead was more of a hard science based Space Opera / pulp Sci-Fi setting where one could create their own sector set at anytime and anywhere in the far future. The original rules included everything needed, for example, to make a Star Trek campaign, with matter transporters, phasers, photon torpedoes, and warp drives. Anything, for example Tech Level 15 or above, is right off the charts in terms of science fiction, and into the realms of science fantasy. Not many people chose to play Traveller that way though with such high tech levels.

It also featured a random jump-route generation system, which was very useful to create pocket space empires, or subsectors, and which was removed from the later editions of Traveller (1981+) that featured the pre-mapped Imperium including the other sophonts of the Solomani Sphere, The Hivers, The Vargyrs, The Aslan, the Droyne, and the Zhodani.

Original Traveller also did not have Yellow or Amber Zones, becuase there was no Imperium, or vast Intergalactic government. It was up to the individual game referee to create their own far future setting, and include what they wanted in it. Of course, Just like with D&D, that all changed with the organized convention play of the late 70's and early 80's.

...and Samardis Press produces the new open source original Traveller clone, The Cepheus Engine.   
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/186894/Cepheus-Engine-System-Reference-Document?affiliate_id=35844
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 11:32:46 am by GameDaddy »
Blackmoor grew from a single Castle to include, first, several adjacent Castles (with the forces of Evil lying just off the edge of the world to an entire Northern Province of the Castle and Crusade Society's Great Kingdom.

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GameDaddy

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Re: The State of OSR
« Reply #78 on: October 16, 2020, 12:00:35 pm »
Also, never considered Castles & Crusades as part of the OSR. The first set of rules for C&C was published in 2000 and was a variant of the 3rd Edition D&D rules, but did seem old school  because the rules had streamlined much of the 3rd edition rules clutter, and greatly simplified character classes providing a fixed set of feats for each character class, and a skills resolution system based on the siege engine, where the character could pick half their attributes to provide specific skills bonuses which improved with every level that the character gained. 

My actual current favorite set of OSR rules is Swords & Wizardry which is very much like original D&D, and would be my choice, Although I am looking to buy a copy of Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea next time I attend GaryCon.
Blackmoor grew from a single Castle to include, first, several adjacent Castles (with the forces of Evil lying just off the edge of the world to an entire Northern Province of the Castle and Crusade Society's Great Kingdom.

~ Dave Arneson

jeff37923

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Re: The State of OSR
« Reply #79 on: October 16, 2020, 12:29:43 pm »
Traveller.
Not sure what this comment was in response to, but Traveller is a good counter example. Despite their being at least 7 version of that game, there is no equivalent to the OSR. People use products from all those versions interchangeably and there is no version purity tests (at least that I can see)

Classic Traveller, the original 1977 edition is considered the original edition. It differed significantly from the later 1981 edition, in that it did not feature a central campaign setting, "The Imperium" but instead was more of a hard science based Space Opera / pulp Sci-Fi setting where one could create their own sector set at anytime and anywhere in the far future. The original rules included everything needed, for example, to make a Star Trek campaign, with matter transporters, phasers, photon torpedoes, and warp drives. Anything, for example Tech Level 15 or above, is right off the charts in terms of science fiction, and into the realms of science fantasy. Not many people chose to play Traveller that way though with such high tech levels.

It also featured a random jump-route generation system, which was very useful to create pocket space empires, or subsectors, and which was removed from the later editions of Traveller (1981+) that featured the pre-mapped Imperium including the other sophonts of the Solomani Sphere, The Hivers, The Vargyrs, The Aslan, the Droyne, and the Zhodani.

Original Traveller also did not have Yellow or Amber Zones, becuase there was no Imperium, or vast Intergalactic government. It was up to the individual game referee to create their own far future setting, and include what they wanted in it. Of course, Just like with D&D, that all changed with the organized convention play of the late 70's and early 80's.

...and Samardis Press produces the new open source original Traveller clone, The Cepheus Engine.   
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/186894/Cepheus-Engine-System-Reference-Document?affiliate_id=35844

Samardan Press


Mercurius

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Re: The State of OSR
« Reply #80 on: October 16, 2020, 02:50:54 pm »
Also, never considered Castles & Crusades as part of the OSR. The first set of rules for C&C was published in 2000 and was a variant of the 3rd Edition D&D rules, but did seem old school  because the rules had streamlined much of the 3rd edition rules clutter, and greatly simplified character classes providing a fixed set of feats for each character class, and a skills resolution system based on the siege engine, where the character could pick half their attributes to provide specific skills bonuses which improved with every level that the character gained. 

It may not be an "official" OSR game (even though there is no clear definition of what an OSR game is, or at least the definition is flexible and subjective), but it is certainly related to it - just as Hackmaster is. My preferred way of looking at is that C&C and Hackmasters are antecedents to the OSR; they helped pave the way, although are not strictly retro-clones because they were adaptations of the then-current edition of the game.

TJS

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Re: The State of OSR
« Reply #81 on: October 17, 2020, 08:20:06 pm »
If a game lets me crack open my giant 2e Montrous Manual (and Castles and Crusades does), then I'm happy to consider it OSR.

lordmalachdrim

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Re: The State of OSR
« Reply #82 on: October 17, 2020, 08:25:21 pm »
It may not be an "official" OSR game (even though there is no clear definition of what an OSR game is, or at least the definition is flexible and subjective), but it is certainly related to it - just as Hackmaster is. My preferred way of looking at is that C&C and Hackmasters are antecedents to the OSR; they helped pave the way, although are not strictly retro-clones because they were adaptations of the then-current edition of the game.

HackMaster was based on AD&D and came out during 3e.

Spinachcat

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Re: The State of OSR
« Reply #83 on: October 17, 2020, 09:14:22 pm »
Castles & Crusades is absolutely OSR. It's AD&D 3e.

Maybe the most commercially successful OSR game too. Certainly the one I've seen on the most shelves in game stores, though DCC is a close second.

BTW, they have a new interesting Kickstarter happening.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ckg/castles-and-crusades-roads-to-adventure?

RPGPundit

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Re: The State of OSR
« Reply #84 on: October 24, 2020, 11:48:06 pm »
RPGPundit's Lion & Dragon should be in a list of OSR notables because he went all-in on putting the medieval back into fantasy RPGing. And he says he bought a house on the proceeds so apparently it sold well.

https://www.amazon.com/Lion-Dragon-Medieval-Authentic-Roleplaying/dp/197958091X

Yeah, I suppose at least to honor the Pundit. On the other hand, does this game have much exposure beyond this site? I honestly don't know. I tried to include only "major" OSR games. This isn't a knock on the Pundit, as "major/minor" has nothing to do with quality - just popularity and influence.


Based on the ongoing income, I'd say it's clearly got a reach beyond this site. Unless there's tons of people here buying a new copy every month or two for some reason.
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Slambo

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Re: The State of OSR
« Reply #85 on: October 25, 2020, 12:39:01 am »
RPGPundit's Lion & Dragon should be in a list of OSR notables because he went all-in on putting the medieval back into fantasy RPGing. And he says he bought a house on the proceeds so apparently it sold well.

https://www.amazon.com/Lion-Dragon-Medieval-Authentic-Roleplaying/dp/197958091X

Yeah, I suppose at least to honor the Pundit. On the other hand, does this game have much exposure beyond this site? I honestly don't know. I tried to include only "major" OSR games. This isn't a knock on the Pundit, as "major/minor" has nothing to do with quality - just popularity and influence.


Based on the ongoing income, I'd say it's clearly got a reach beyond this site. Unless there's tons of people here buying a new copy every month or two for some reason.

We've been found out!

hedgehobbit

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Re: The State of OSR
« Reply #86 on: October 25, 2020, 10:10:33 am »
The original rules included everything needed, for example, to make a Star Trek campaign, with matter transporters, phasers, photon torpedoes, and warp drives.

I have what I thought was the original edition of Traveller and I can't find any rules for transporters, phasers, or warp drives. The only weapons in my book are laser, missiles, and sand casters.