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Author Topic: Women in Old School Gaming - 1982 Chaosium Playtester List  (Read 3141 times)

Ulairi
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« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2017, 06:45:17 PM »
Quote from: AsenRG;958010
But I don't care about other hobbies:).


That's possible. Theoretically.
My experience sure as hell points otherwise, though:p.

And unlike scrapbooking and men, there isn't a general idea that engaging in "let's pretend" makes women less feminine;). Quite the opposite, in fact, it's a popular pastime with young girls, so there's a really large pool of potential female "recruits":D!



I agree. I'm a father of daughters and my daughters love playing pretend. You know what they don't love? Adding extra rules to try to model things that they are pretending.

Voros
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« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2017, 11:07:35 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;957896

Google books link: https://books.google.com/books?id=rLlLbN0XuSEC&lpg=PA62&vq=women%20in%20fantasy%20games&pg=PA62#v=snippet&q=women%20in%20fantasy%20games&f=false

Some women were welcome at some tables, other women were not welcomed at other tables.


On the Gauntlet podcast they interviewed the sf writer Cat Rambo who was active in the RPG scene in the early 80s and she tells similar stories. Not hundred percent hostile but not exactly welcoming either. Rather icky.

Christopher Brady

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« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2017, 01:20:11 AM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;957944
Oh. I see. You're furiously fucking a strawman.

Carry on with your weird kink, then.
Yes, because FORCING PEOPLE INTO DOING SOMETHING THEY DON'T WANT FOR THE PURPOSES OF EQUALITY is perfectly all right.  Isn't that right, Mr, Authoritarian?  Because fuck what people want, they have to do it YOUR WAY, or THEY ARE WRONG and must be eliminated!
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Spinachcat

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« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2017, 01:45:00 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;957896
Some women were welcome at some tables, other women were not welcomed at other tables.


I see a problem if Group XYZ is not welcome in a public game. If that is happening anywhere to any Group XYZ, that shit needs to be dick stomped.

But I can't fault private groups (past or present) from doing whatever. It's inside their homes.

People self-segregate for many reasons - maybe stupid or vile reasons to outsiders, but important reasons to the group itself.


Quote from: Justin Alexander;957944
Oh. I see. You're furiously fucking a strawman.

Carry on with your weird kink, then.


LOL! I've never heard "furiously fucking a strawman" before!!

It should be a gif!!


Quote from: Nexus;957904
For that matter, why is the concern so focused on gender?


Sex.

Its often hysterical to see how single (or not) straight male gamers act at the table around a female gamer.

Heaven forbid if she's cute, then its a Benny Hill skit.

More gamer grrls = more potential sex partners with similar interests = more spooge squirting happy time!

The fury to defend GR in an obvious act of discrimination is telling. When in doubt, look for a primal motive and nothing is more basic for men than mating.

So I just gotta shut my piehole about the GR crap because its uncool to cockblock our dice bros.

crkrueger

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« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2017, 03:00:03 AM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;957839
You can claim that there's nothing wrong with them being under-represented, but that doesn't mean that they're not under-represented.


Fair enough.
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AsenRG

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« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2017, 03:36:23 AM »
Quote from: Nexus;958016
which would be a fine answer if I were only talking to you.
But even though you're asking everyone, any of us can only answer about himself or herself:). Because nobody else can speak for me, and I can't speak for everyone else.

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Which doesn't mean that the current gender imbalance as far as gaming goes is driven by sexism and discrimination in the hobby.
And I'm not saying that. Granted, sexism is likely a reason...because seriously, sexists are everywhere. It would be obnoxious to pretend gaming is free of it - and if a single blatant sexist is an important part of the first group an woman is introduced to, what do you think she'd conclude about the whole activity?
But it's not the only reason. IME, "people aren't trying" is the major reason.

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IME, less women than men are interested in gaming when asked or are more interested in a different style than many of the male enthusiasts (often something more like what would be dubbed "storygaming" here).
IME, definitely untrue. The most ferocious opponents of storygames I know are women, and most of the female players just see most storygames as useless.

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But in either case, it doesn't mean the difference is driven by something malicious which was one of my points.

I'm not saying it's malicious. What I was saying was, and still is, that your scrapbooking example is not similar enough to draw any conclusions from.
One is a hobby that lacks men, because there's a society-wide perception that men that engage in said activity are feminine, and probably gay. It also requires skill in activities that are unfamiliar to most men. Consequently, men that don't want to be associated with this have a strong incentive to avoid it. Any attempts to get more men involved in the hobby would have to first overcome this bareer.
The other is a hobby with less women, despite having no such gender-based perceptions (being associated with nerds or satanists isn't a gender-related stigma). Furthermore, it consists, at its core, of an activity that's well-familiar to most women since childhood. Any attempts to get more women involved have no gender-related bareers to overcome.
Sorry, but I call apples to oranges.

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There does seem to be more willingness to accept "maybe guys just don't want to do that" when it comes to other interests. Or more of a general lack of concern about it.
Yes, but then it's seldom "guys are prevented from doing that because of sexism". With women, this happens way more often.

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I didn't say enjoying gaming made women appear less feminine. I said that enjoying activities like Coloring and Scrapbooking are often perceived as more feminine activities so are generally marketed to women rather than the assumed sexist motivation in case of Adult coloring books that only women would be simple minded enough to enjoy them.
Exactly what I said, too.
And that's why your example is no good.

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I think you're missing my point which is the fact less women than men currently interested in rpgs isn't automatically the sign of some kind of discrimination in he hobby, its fans or the industry that drives it.

And I'm saying that the there should be one of these, because the activity is one which easily attracts women. See also: 90s Vampire boom.
(IME, it's the fans that don't make even a modicum of effort to adjust. Funny enough, part of it is due to the constant hammering that women are no different from men, so fans that try to attract women simply give them the same pitch as they do to men - even if they'd adjust it to attract different types of male gamers).

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There may be other factors. I find it puzzling that similar or greater gender imbalances in other hobbies don't seem to cause as much distress or even outrage and offense as the difference in rpgs. Its like there is a moral imperative that more women be "recruited".
Which are those other hobbies where they don't cause as much distress? If they're like scrapbooking, then yes - people recognize the gender-based bareers and live with them. But even in martial arts there is a push to attract more women and promote the activity to women...and frankly, while women can learn martial arts, a host of factors (both biological and social) help men to learn them faster, which is a major disincentive to any newbie that joins:).

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It would be nice if more were more women (and, IMO, blacks) into gaming and the number seems to be increasing. I'm simply not sure the reasons there is not exact gender parity are as sinister and hostile as often put fourth or there is some great urgency that exact parity or some vague "fair" balance be reached. If generally less women want to game, IMO, that's fine as long as the ones that do find an open and receptive crowd to join in.
With that, however, I agree;). But IME, it's not hostility as refusing to adjust in the slightest.
Simple example: you invite a single man to join a group of 4 other men in someone's flat, possibly saying there would be drinks to make it worth his while even if he decides not to join in the play pretend. The guy is unlikely to be worried about you inviting him to see a session even if you're just casual acquaintances, or just met him on a forum.
Now, imagine the same group of 4 men inviting an woman to visit their flat, where she knows they would be drinking and they'd be playing pretend...and the invitation is from a casual acquaintance, someone you met in a gaming shop or on a forum. Can you guess why she might not be disposed to give them a shot:p?
But the conclusion the four men are likely to draw is "huh, the guy at least came to see a session, guess women don't like RPGs!"
Yeah, I'm not making up the example, BTW:D!

The above is also why groups that have at least one female players often have an easier time attracting others, too;).
And so on and so forth. Adjusting ain't that hard, but many people behave like inviting someone to talk about games and life in a bar (and so she could take your measure and assess whether you seem like a criminal) would be an attempt at their manhood, or something.

Quote from: Ulairi;958023
I agree. I'm a father of daughters and my daughters love playing pretend. You know what they don't love? Adding extra rules to try to model things that they are pretending.

So, your daughters are old school? Congratulations, and have many nice games:D!
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Nexus

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« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2017, 07:03:23 AM »
Quote from: AsenRG;958082
*stuff*

Since we're apparently not talking to each other or even about subjects the other is interested in then there really isn't much reason to continue this tail chasing conversation (for lack of a better word).
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Nexus

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« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2017, 07:07:12 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;958077
Fair enough.

That does put what I was saying more succinctly. The numbers are the numbers I just don't think there's something automatically wrong about it. It represents a potential market to expand into but I don't agree with some of the automatic assumptions that are pushed about gaming (and gamers) due to the difference.

Quote from: Spinachcat;958072
Sex.

Its often hysterical to see how single (or not) straight male gamers act at the table around a female gamer.

Heaven forbid if she's cute, then its a Benny Hill skit.

More gamer grrls = more potential sex partners with similar interests = more spooge squirting happy time!

The fury to defend GR in an obvious act of discrimination is telling. When in doubt, look for a primal motive and nothing is more basic for men than mating.

On some level, you're probably on to something. I've seen the effect you describe. Its not just with gamers, of course, but gamers are human just like anyone else. And sex is big motivator for humans regardless if we want to admit or not. Or are even consciously aware of it or not
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 07:12:40 AM by Nexus »
Remember when Illinois Nazis where a joke in the Blue Brothers movie?

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 "The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn’t even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it."

AsenRG

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« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2017, 01:11:48 PM »
Quote from: Nexus;958099
Since we're apparently not talking to each other or even about subjects the other is interested in then there really isn't much reason to continue this tail chasing conversation (for lack of a better word).

Fine:).
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« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2017, 06:09:50 PM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;957944
Oh. I see. You're furiously fucking a strawman.

Carry on with your weird kink, then.


I'm rather offended you assumed the strawbeing's gender.
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