Quote from: Simlasa;817544It says 'Iron Age Drama' on the cover... so I'm not getting the Sopranos vibe. Is that from supplemental materials?

The default setting is Iron Age hunter/gatherers, but since the setting takes about three pages to explain, the book also includes thirty others, ranging from stuff written by Dave Gross and Ed Greenwood to Jason Morningstar.

QuoteIt kindasorta sounds like a tool for frustrated script writers.

Nope, it's Robin Laws, it's a real game.  It directly deals with the fact that the average player in a role-playing game will never make what they perceive as a less than ideal choice for his character, given that the character is a) a bunch of stats on a piece of paper, who is b) rewarded for money and killing but not c) all of the things real people want, like recognition, fame, status and love/revenge, what-have-you.  So it incentivizes doing all the things real people do, which is occasionally make less than ideal choices because they reward some other part of the character's personality or goals.

Each character has a set of Dramatic Poles and relationships with the rest of the party, so you may make a decision that works because you're War Leader in a Time of War, but doesn't work for the part of you that Seeks the Create a Dynasty, because the girl you want to wed to create said dynasty is now pissed at you.  

To take Bradford Walker's incredibly narrow and bullshit example of what an RPG is, Hillfolk simply broadens what it means to be going for your character's best advantage.  Sometimes you want to conquer the world, and sometimes you want Aggripina to warm your bed and call you her mighty Caesar, and it creates a token economy to make those scenes happen.  It's not concerned with whether or not you conquer the world or get Aggripina in bed, it's concerned with creating drama around that interplay, to complement the normal procedural stuff that goes on in an RPG.

You could, and I have wanted to do this, just clip the Drama rules on top of any OSR ruleset or Pathfinder or what have you.  I've wanted to do that with a Pathfinder game where adventuring companies are literal companies granted letters of marque and salvage to invade old dungeons and exploit the fuck out of them.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;817615Nope, it's Robin Laws, it's a real game.

Meh, guess I'm not in that fan club.

QuoteIt directly deals with the fact that the average player in a role-playing game will never make what they perceive as a less than ideal choice for his character

In tonight's Pathfinder game our group bought and then set free a small village worth of halfling slaves... we also bought them a farm and gave them enough cash to set themselves up. No gain for us at all except maybe a good meal next time we blow through town.
Does that mean we're not 'average'?

QuoteYou could, and I have wanted to do this, just clip the Drama rules on top of any OSR ruleset or Pathfinder or what have you.  I've wanted to do that with a Pathfinder game where adventuring companies are literal companies granted letters of marque and salvage to invade old dungeons and exploit the fuck out of them.

Sounds fun! But I'm really not seeing why you'd need 'Drama rules' for that... if it's the sort of game the Players want to play. Why use behavior modification gimmicks to steer them towards stuff they're not already inclined to do?

Quote from: Simlasa;817830Meh, guess I'm not in that fan club.

In tonight's Pathfinder game our group bought and then set free a small village worth of halfling slaves... we also bought them a farm and gave them enough cash to set themselves up. No gain for us at all except maybe a good meal next time we blow through town.
Does that mean we're not 'average'?

Sounds fun! But I'm really not seeing why you'd need 'Drama rules' for that... if it's the sort of game the Players want to play. Why use behavior modification gimmicks to steer them towards stuff they're not already inclined to do?

But why not?
I mean we give XP to incentivise pcs fighting and players would fight shit no matter what.

If the rules are there to try and force characters to make more roleplay based decisions as opposed to merely following the most expedient  route to the most obvious goal, then I kind of like the idea.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;817615It directly deals with the fact that the average player in a role-playing game will never make what they perceive as a less than ideal choice for his character, given that the character is a) a bunch of stats on a piece of paper, who is b) rewarded for money and killing but not c) all of the things real people want, like recognition, fame, status and love/revenge, what-have-you.  So it incentivizes doing all the things real people do, which is occasionally make less than ideal choices because they reward some other part of the character's personality or goals.

In other words, narrative rules to attempt to teach the munchkin to roleplay instead of deal with mechanics by giving them another set of mechanics to force them to roleplay. :banghead:

Quote from: jibbajibba;817875But why not?
I mean we give XP to incentivise pcs fighting and players would fight shit no matter what.

My preferred systems are most often BRP-derived, where PCs get XP for whatever they do, and none for what they don't do. Fighting isn't the only path to success.

QuoteIf the rules are there to try and force characters to make more roleplay based decisions as opposed to merely following the most expedient  route to the most obvious goal, then I kind of like the idea.

Most folks don't like being forced to do things... especially when it's supposed to be fun/play.
Some GMs I Play with hand out XP for 'good roleplaying'... but it comes off as sort of arbitrary and seems to encourage some folks to regretable excess.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;817539OTOH, all of that is basically underneath a system that for Dramatic Scenes which incentivizes taking dramatically appropriate actions that further the plot that are not necessarily in the best interest of your character.  It's specifically meant to mimic cable dramas like The Shield, Sons of Anarchy, The Sopranos, Boardwalk Empire, etc.

I'm a bit skeptical that trying to emuate a TV series such as these is a good concept for an RPG. It boils down to "art imitating art imitating life" and that seems to include a rather rendundant step.
Besides, I don't like games that want to tell me how I have to feel, which makes quite a few "drama systems" a bit annoying. So, this is probably not a game for me (which is sad, because "Iron Age hunters and gatherers" sounds cool. In a propper, historic game).

I have yet to read the SRD, but from the sound of it I'd probably try using the basic drama rules with an OSR of some kind. I disagree that "real rpgs" don't give a shit about drama. I very much enjoy Cinematic Unisystem--I didn't utilize Drama Points as much as some players, but I liked what they stood for.

I don't do full co-op narrativist stuff like Microscope of Chuubos (FUCK Chuubos) or whatever, but I'm curious about these drama rules.

Quote from: Beagle;817889I'm a bit skeptical that trying to emuate a TV series such as these is a good concept for an RPG. It boils down to "art imitating art imitating life" and that seems to include a rather rendundant step.

It doesn't really emulate a TV show mechanically unless you choose to use it's explicit "hard" scene framing rules (and even then it's not exactly a TV show, but more a structured narrative in the literary sense). It also has an option for "Immersive Play" where the scene frames are "soft", in other words pretty much how most RPGs use them already.

QuoteBesides, I don't like games that want to tell me how I have to feel, which makes quite a few "drama systems" a bit annoying. So, this is probably not a game for me (which is sad, because "Iron Age hunters and gatherers" sounds cool. In a propper, historic game).

I haven't played it, but I have read it, and I don't think it tells you how to feel at all. In fact, it's the opposite, it incentivises and rewards you to act on how you (your character, actually) feels (as decided by you). The drama point system is more about how important are your feelings on something rather than on what they are.

The procedural rules kinda blow, so I'd drop the drama rules onto another system.

Quote from: CRKrueger;817879In other words, narrative rules to attempt to teach the munchkin to roleplay instead of deal with mechanics by giving them another set of mechanics to force them to roleplay. :banghead:

Either that or written by someone whos never seen players play a character "sub optimally" as part of the character.

I might know that a troll is killed and stopped regenerating by fire or acid. But my character whos never seen or heard of a troll before sure as hell isnt going to cast fire or acid spells specifically to kill it. I'll start off with whatevers my go-to attack spell and if thats not fire or acid based well boo-hoo-hoo! If I see it regenerate I might try fire then as it makes sense in that cauterize the wound sort of way. I might never hit on acid as an option. And yes playing like that might get my character DOA.

i have to agree for me the example does not really work i would never play a character who does not know how to kill a troll (largely because as a gm i would say its something every peasant would know) but i do agree with the general idea in a recent game i encountered a giant slug i knew that salt would affect it but i was not sure my character would so i made a knowledge check and we went on our merry way

Quote from: Omega;818010Either that or written by someone whos never seen players play a character "sub optimally" as part of the character.

I might know that a troll is killed and stopped regenerating by fire or acid. But my character whos never seen or heard of a troll before sure as hell isnt going to cast fire or acid spells specifically to kill it. I'll start off with whatevers my go-to attack spell and if thats not fire or acid based well boo-hoo-hoo! If I see it regenerate I might try fire then as it makes sense in that cauterize the wound sort of way. I might never hit on acid as an option. And yes playing like that might get my character DOA.

Actually, Hillfolk's drama system doesn't cover character knowledge in any way. It's only used in dramatic relationships between characters, not in procedural stuff like "how to kill a troll". It never really addresses that kind of question.

It's not a proscriptive system where it's "correcting" someone's behavior, but more something that creates incentives for characters to engage with each other in emotionally fraught (drama) ways, based on the desires and relationships you've created for your character. If you know how to kill a troll or not isn't on the menu.

Almost played this a while back, may still get an opportunity to do so in the future. I don't know anything about the system. One of my players seems to really like it. It is Laws so I am expecting GM as storyteller type stuff to be in there. My experience with Gumshoe was it wasn't for me, but I did think it did some interesting things. The sales pitch from the player has me a bit more interested in this one. At the very least, the setting seems interesting.

Quote from: CRKrueger;817879In other words, narrative rules to attempt to teach the munchkin to roleplay instead of deal with mechanics by giving them another set of mechanics to force them to roleplay. :banghead:

Nope.  I think it generally assumes the players there are competent. Much like Gumshoe is just prescribing what a lot of people do anyway, Drama System is basically creating an economy for things a lot of people do as it is, and by structuring it creates a more formal rhythm.

Drama System says there are two types of scenes: Procedural and Dramatic.  Procedural Scenes are ones where the good guys are shooting at the bad guys or the heist happens, where things revolve around physical action.  Dramatic Scenes are the heart of the system, and are encounters between two characters, the Petitioner and the Grantor.  The Petitioner wants some emotional payoff from the Grantor; the Grantor may or may not want to give it. If the Grantor gives the payoff up, they get a token; if they don't give it up, the Petitioner can force the issue, which the Grantor can then block.  If the Petitioner is rebuffed, they get a token.  

So in an episode of Arrow, where Oliver is off fighting Ra's Al Ghul's assassins, that's a Procedural Scene, usually.  When he's in the basement of Verdant debating the morality of allying with Merlyn with Diggle and Felicity, that's a Dramatic Scene.  

Since you get a token for relenting and that token can be used for various things, including triggering your own dramatic conflicts, and your character has innate paradoxes that mean that relenting in a dramatic scene isn't being false, then you have an incentive to see how things go if you're the grantor.  Sons of Anarchy's final season revolved around Jax believing his mother when his mother has, at times, been a terrible person -- in game terms, Jax got a token for giving her his trust, and it triggers the events of the rest of the game.  

Again, most people do this all the time, this just explicitly formalizes it, creates an incentive economy, and a framework for it to happen in.  And the ideas are incredible -- thumbing through my book, there's everything from a story about being henchmen to supervillains to being mad scientists to being the Hogwarts students all grown up and teaching, etc.  I don't regret buying it, even if I don't play it enough.

FVB:
Your initial sales pitch and later commentary keeps making it feel otherwise.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;818180Much like Gumshoe is just prescribing what a lot of people do anyway

Yeah, didn't care for Gumshoe's solution to a non-problem either.

QuoteDrama System is basically creating an economy for things a lot of people do as it is, and by structuring it creates a more formal rhythm.

I'm still not getting why I'd want that... just seems like adding rules and jargon for stuff that doesn't need rules and jargon.

QuoteDrama System says there are two types of scenes: Procedural and Dramatic.

Why bother?

QuoteAgain, most people do this all the time, this just explicitly formalizes it, creates an incentive economy, and a framework for it to happen in.

I don't see how that adds more fun... it actually sounds fucking annoying and nitpicky. Complicating something for no good reason.