I think it is pretty exceptional when someone can run high level D&D and have fun. Think about how hard it is for comic book writers to come up with plots for Superman and the justice league. If you read those comics now, they are about the characters' personal lives, moral dilemmas, or villains with no goal other than to attack super heroes.

Now think about how much more powerful a high level D&D group is than the Justice League. A fireball spell cast by a fifth level wizard is functionally more powerful than most of their energy projection. A 16th level ranger with an epic bow is by far nastier than Green Arrow. The green lantern tires out faster than an invoker mage. About the only difference between the two is that D&D heroes and villains have a harder time breaking / lifting inanimate objects, but they can travel into alternate universes easier.

And in a whole 2 - 3 month story arc, with comics, where the characters do exactly what the writer wants, there is usually only one hard fight. That fight has a big AH HA moment when you see why the bad guy can stand up to the heroes for a few minutes.

D&D DMs are expected to come up with 3-4 fights per week that are a good match for the justice league when the justice league's controllers are actively trying to beat him.

Quote from: Daztur;419207You really really really really shouldn't GM level D&D unless you know the system inside and out in your sleep. Your GM obviously does not and having you skip the lower levels just makes the problem worse. I wouldn't hold out too much hope for this campaign.

We didn't skip the lower levels. We've gone from level 1 to level 16. And yeah, it's not just lack of knowledge necessarily, he also has a tendency to phone things in. There was a bit a year or so ago where he was still giving us a couple hundred XP per session, until we pointed out that it would take us approximately 25 real-time years to level at that rate. And he would throw us CR 1 characters when we were level 12.

I'm just hoping to give him something he can use to make it more interesting and challenging for the players. Plus I'm worried that when we get to endgame, he's going to have to either nerf the hell out of the final obstacles, or we'll TPK because we've been totally unprepared for real challenges.

Anyway, I appreciate the responses.

High level games are not difficult to run. They are just different. I have played plenty both coming in at high levels for a one off scenario (usally played over a monster weekend).

I have run these as dungeoncrawls, political intrigues, murder mysteries and in all sorts of formats.

There are some provisos.

Certain D&D magic items break the game, like Cubes of force, or wish items. As a DM you veto items if you can. If you can't becuase you are a weak pussie and don;t liek saying no to your players then steal them break them and cheat.

Uses smarts. I can kill a party of 16th level Pcs with a tribe of Minotaurs, a few cans of paint and some use of tactics. Some basics are match the top spell caster with a simialrly powered spell caster and plan ahead. Antimagic shells and the like. Guerilla strikes to use up healing. Make sure that any items the PCs gain are used to their maximum by the enemy

Looks for things that are level independent. So Traps are a good example. A trap that triggers a corrosive acid gas. the PCs might survive but how about some saves for all that equipment they are carrying. You will be suprised how weak a 16th level fighter actually is when you take away their armour.

Use other parties of NPCs. If you need the perfect opponent for a party of 4 16th level PCs its 4 16th level NPCs except NPCs that have honed their skills into a symbiotic unit (ie you as the DM picked all their stuff to be complementary). Be careful though when you backstab the 16th level Wizard for 46 damage they will winge and complain that that wasn't fair even if their 16th level thief was just about to do the same thing himself.

Intrigue, one way that comics overcome the lack of suitable opponents is to focus of plots intrigue and internal conflict.

Urgency, don;t let them rest. Throw stuff at them use up their resources then throw more stuff at them. In the final encounter the wizard should be trying to stab things with his +2 dagger cos he has used everythign else.

And don;t take major Badies like a litch and have 7 of them.... that is dire. I had a single litch once kill 2 of a party of 7 20th Level PCs... Wizard eye, project image, meteorswarm.. oh and a bunch of ghosts. Make hte bad guys big and bad not crap and have dozens of them.