Pundit,

I find that our views coincide more often than not, although I wouldn't... ah... express them in quite the way you do.

That being the case, I'm wondering whether you object to storytelling games in principle, or whether they only become "swine games" to you when they pose as RPGs?

Me, I'm pretty much a live-and-let-live kinda guy when it comes to the games people want to play, but I'm also a "words mean things" kinda guy. I get extremely annoyed when people try to conflate one type of activity with a related-but-distinct activity.

I really don't care about Storygames, if they were only marketed as a separate hobby, rather than attempting to redefine RPGs as storygames.  Just like I don't have any problem with wargames (which I also play) or CCGs or MMORPGs (both of which I don't play).

RPGPundit

Sounds like we're on the same page there.

So, do you consider things like drama points to be storygame elements that shouldn't be in an RPG?

For the record, I'm exactly on the same page as you two. I pointed out recently on a Fiasco thread that I could imagine enjoying myself playing the game once in a while, casually, and I meant it. Just like I can enjoy a game of checkers, poker, and whatever other games are not role playing games.

That said, don't try to change the traditional RPGs I like to rebuild them as not-RPGs. That annoys the fuck out of me.

Note to self: work the word 'story' into more posts.

Also: wrong forum.

I agree that Storygames are something different from RPG's (They're games in which some RP happens, rather than RPG's), but outside of a few specific individuals, I don't think there are any grand schemes to replace RPG's (And we could probably name 'em all - Edwards...). As ever, we should all pinch the best stuff and ignore the rest... like, freeform traits, yes! Pausing the action to set stakes for an elaborate game of craps, no!

In terms of retail, there's an overlap between people who play each kind of game, so that's why they are sold together. It's not everyone, of course, but it's there. Outside of message board extremists, I'm not sure that many people really care about the distinction, instead thinking of "games I like" and "games I didn't like".
They're not huge sellers, but that's a bit of a tautology; they aren't intended to sell huge quantities. They aren't designed to be the next industry leader (Outside of a few deluded extremists), but as games that some people wanted to play.

Demonifying Edwards and his thoughts makes him appear unduly important. He was just a man with some ideas and a degree in bat penises who badly ran a forum.

Quote from: Ladybird;565543Demonifying Edwards and his thoughts makes him appear unduly important. He was just a man with some ideas and a degree in bat penises who badly ran a forum.

Speaking of whom, has there been so much as a peep from him in the last couple of years? Just curious.

Some say, that if you stare into a mirror and say "Ron Edwards" true name three times, you'll look like a twit.

Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;565547Speaking of whom, has there been so much as a peep from him in the last couple of years? Just curious.

The Forge went into a "winter phase", ie. it slowly closed after he ran out of things to say, and is getting remade as a GNS wiki; he seemed quite excited about that. And he threw a hissy fit about IPR employees getting paid for their work, because at two staff members, it was FAR TOO BIG. Other than that, not really.

Quote from: Benoist;565460For the record, I'm exactly on the same page as you two. I pointed out recently on a Fiasco thread that I could imagine enjoying myself playing the game once in a while, casually, and I meant it. Just like I can enjoy a game of checkers, poker, and whatever other games are not role playing games.

That is the stupidest argument.

So because a particular game happens to be a more casual affair, perhaps 'beer and pretzels' it is no longer an rpg?

You really are a prize twat aren't you.

Noone is feeling threatened by these games. They aren't taking up valuable shelf space or bandwidth. They aren't threatening you. Get a fucking life!

It might just even be that someone, drawn to gaming, via something like Fiasco will then go on to try more 'traditional' games, assuming that distinction has any merit or value whatsoever. Games are games. End of.

Quote from: Ladybird;565550The Forge went into a "winter phase", ie. it slowly closed after he ran out of things to say

I love that, we're not running out of members or closing due to general unpopularity, its a winter phase.

And thank you GW for reminding us all of one of the more important reasons storygames are objectionable, the people that accumulate around them. Pickles blended with orange juice is good for what ails you, not sure there's much to be done about the incipient cirrhosis though.

Speaking of, there's a distinct whiff of aspiring rules lawyerism from this thread.

Quote from: The Traveller;565554I love that, we're not running out of members or closing due to general unpopularity, its a winter phase.

And thank you GW for reminding us all of one of the more important reasons storygames are objectionable, the people that accumulate around them. Pickles blended with orange juice is good for what ails you, not sure there's much to be done about the incipient cirrhosis though.

Speaking of, there's a distinct whiff of aspiring rules lawyerism from this thread.

Liking the games isn't the issue. Pundit can't even put out a proper definition as to what gets posted where. No one is forcing people to play 'story' games anymore than they are trying to destroy other games. Lots of non-traditional gamers also enjoy traditional gamers. Why on earth would anyone even consider the idea that there is a competition between them. The only person that puts up this divide is right here, no one else has a need to believe this paranoid nonsense.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;565552That is the stupidest argument.

So because a particular game happens to be a more casual affair, perhaps 'beer and pretzels' it is no longer an rpg?

You really are a prize twat aren't you.

Noone is feeling threatened by these games. They aren't taking up valuable shelf space or bandwidth. They aren't threatening you. Get a fucking life!

It might just even be that someone, drawn to gaming, via something like Fiasco will then go on to try more 'traditional' games, assuming that distinction has any merit or value whatsoever. Games are games. End of.

You're making much more out of this than there actually is.

Some games are designed to be shorter-form things. And that's fine. The important part of Benoist's post is that he'd play the game and enjoy it, not whether he thinks they're RPG's or not. He just prefers AD&D1e.

Quote from: The Traveller;565554Speaking of, there's a distinct whiff of aspiring rules lawyerism from this thread.

I won't claim that I agree with every thread move relating to this subject, but I have no interest in making a big issue about it. Looks to me like Dan's just trying to start a discussion.

If you're talking about diceless, "let's sit around the couch and make up some stuff", I'm not really a fan. Otherwise, every traditional RPG is a storytelling game... is it not?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;565552That is the stupidest argument.

So because a particular game happens to be a more casual affair, perhaps 'beer and pretzels' it is no longer an rpg?

LMFAO You are totally stupid! I love you! AHAHAHA!

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;565562If you're talking about diceless, "let's sit around the couch and make up some stuff", I'm not really a fan. Otherwise, every traditional RPG is a storytelling game... is it not?

My take on this: RPGs do not tell "stories"