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Author Topic: Hey, Pundit? Your opinion on storytelling games?  (Read 32463 times)

Machinegun Blue

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Hey, Pundit? Your opinion on storytelling games?
« Reply #690 on: August 08, 2012, 05:15:19 PM »
Quote from: Benoist;569321
Would the word "identification", as in "some degree of identification with the character" be more acceptable, in your view?


I identify very easily with things. Like those little Risk pieces. Makes playing miniatures games troublesome.

crkrueger

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Hey, Pundit? Your opinion on storytelling games?
« Reply #691 on: August 08, 2012, 05:33:41 PM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;569185
Second, because I don't think immersion -- as I understand the term and in the way the term was originally used -- is required for roleplaying. It is, instead, an incredibly specialized form of roleplaying which only an incredibly small portion of the hobby ever experiences.)


Now lets assume that is correct, in fact lets assume that Benoist is the only human being on the face of the earth who in fact practices that specialized form of roleplaying.

You don't roleplay that way.

I don't.

No one else but Ben does.

We now know what that definition of this particular term means, and to prevent confusion we now call that rare form of roleplaying "Benplaying".
Everyone from Ron Edwards to the ghost of the guy who came up with Braunstein knows what Benplaying means.

Now if Ben says that a mechanic that focuses his POV outside his character thus prevents him from Benplaying (which by our new definition requires IC POV), can we at least now see how it could prevent Benplaying, even though we don't Benplay ourselves?
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

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jhkim

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Hey, Pundit? Your opinion on storytelling games?
« Reply #692 on: August 08, 2012, 05:33:43 PM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;569185
(Personally, when I see the word "immersion" I immediately assume we're talking about the style of play Mary Kuhner described when she started using the term: A form of roleplaying involving techniques and a mindset similar to Method acting. This, notably, is not the definition which appears in J.H. Kim's FAQ because Kim was never able to really grok what Kuhner was talking about.

I didn't define it as Mary Kuhner's play style because her play style was not particularly common, and didn't represent a consensus.  I deliberately put in differences on the point to represent what people other than Mary said - like Kevin Hardwick, who argued that for him, immersion could be helped by getting directives from the GM about what he thought or felt in-character, whereas that was a big problem for Mary.  

For what it's worth, here was my FAQ definition -
Quote
"immersion":  This is a term for trying to cut out all meta-game information and view things from the Point-of-View of your character (or for GM's just look at the game world facts). The player tries to feel what the PC is feeling, and develops a complex intuitive model of the PC.  Some immersive players  are "closed" to the GM or mechanics telling them what the PC is feeling, because that interferes with their internal model. Others are "open" to such external input.


Incidentally, there was a book released just a few weeks ago about immersion in role-playing,

http://www.amazon.com/Immersive-Gameplay-Essays-Participatory-Role-Playing/dp/0786468343/ref=sr_1_2

soviet

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Hey, Pundit? Your opinion on storytelling games?
« Reply #693 on: August 08, 2012, 06:01:38 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;569382
Everyone from Ron Edwards to the ghost of the guy who came up with Braunstein knows what Benplaying means.


Dave Wesely is still alive!

Quote from: CRKrueger;569382
Now if Ben says that a mechanic that focuses his POV outside his character thus prevents him from Benplaying (which by our new definition requires IC POV), can we at least now see how it could prevent Benplaying, even though we don't Benplay ourselves?


The issue isn't whether such things prevent Benplaying. The issue is whether Benplaying is such an essential component to roleplaying that things that prevent or obstruct (even momentarily) Benplaying are by definition not roleplaying games.
Buy Other Worlds, it's a multi-genre storygame excuse for an RPG designed to wreck the hobby from within

crkrueger

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Hey, Pundit? Your opinion on storytelling games?
« Reply #694 on: August 08, 2012, 07:13:28 PM »
Quote from: soviet;569391
Dave Wesely is still alive!
Oh Sweet! :hatsoff:

Quote from: soviet;569391
The issue isn't whether such things prevent Benplaying. The issue is whether Benplaying is such an essential component to roleplaying that things that prevent or obstruct (even momentarily) Benplaying are by definition not roleplaying games.


Actually they are both issues, if you look back through this thread (and the dozen others), you'll see people saying that an OOC POV mechanic does not in fact break an IC POV, an obvious oxymoron, and it happens frequently.  The reason such arguments get made (and not realized) is because it always masquerades (sometimes legitimately) as arguing about the definition of immersion and roleplaying.  So if we call it Benplaying you'd have to really twist that brain into a pretzel to pretend that an OOC POV mechanic is by definition part of a Benplaying Game.

That fact that 12,000 posts can be spent arguing over terms like Role-playing means the word itself is no longer sufficient to describe the experience.  Pick whatever term you what, but please don't try and tell me that you actually think that what goes in your head when you roleplay (as you define it) is the same as what goes on in Ben or Vreeg's head when they roleplay (as they define it).

If terms are no longer useful for definition, useful terms for definition must be made.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

LordVreeg

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Hey, Pundit? Your opinion on storytelling games?
« Reply #695 on: August 08, 2012, 07:19:17 PM »
Hence, my posts that definitions matter.
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Justin Alexander
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Hey, Pundit? Your opinion on storytelling games?
« Reply #696 on: August 09, 2012, 02:14:11 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;569382
Now lets assume that is correct, in fact lets assume that Benoist is the only human being on the face of the earth who in fact practices that specialized form of roleplaying.


Oh, hey. Thanks for proving my point.

I don't actually think that Benoist is using the term the same way Mary Kuhner used it or the way that I use it (on the rare occasion that I do). In fact, I said that explicitly in the post you're replying to.
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crkrueger

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Hey, Pundit? Your opinion on storytelling games?
« Reply #697 on: August 09, 2012, 03:40:49 AM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;569606
Oh, hey. Thanks for proving my point.

I don't actually think that Benoist is using the term the same way Mary Kuhner used it or the way that I use it (on the rare occasion that I do). In fact, I said that explicitly in the post you're replying to.


Yeah I know, I just picked Ben because it's less letters then Vreeg, or Kuhner (and only 5 people here know who she is anyway). :D
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

D-503

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Hey, Pundit? Your opinion on storytelling games?
« Reply #698 on: August 09, 2012, 04:39:20 AM »
Quote from: gleichman;569111
I've seen those who claim storygamers don't role-play (on this very board), and those into simulation (especially combat simulation) as not role-playing (again on this very board).

But I don't think I've every seen anyone attempt to define immersion as "not role-playing". If there was someone, it was so uncommon that the memory didn't stick.

Now I have seen people who wish they'd shut up and get out of the way (for I have never seen a group who opposed so much in the way of game design), or who think they're a bit crazy (in relation to 'deep immersion', often with some reason to be honest). But no one who claimed they weren't role-players.


Not quite not roleplaying, more a crazy form of roleplaying indicative of mental illness or that it just flatly doesn't exist. In a way it's more fundamental than saying it's not roleplaying. I've seen it very rarely on storygames, but most often on rpg.net back when I used to regularly go there.

It's the internet. There's nothing so stupid someone somewhere isn't arguing it. It often seemed to be Forge diaspora types, the ones who'd happily argue theory all day long without somehow ever talking about their own actual gaming. I've no love for the Forge, but it kicked those people out for good reason.

Edit: This thread is to be honest too boring to be worth my time. That's not remotely a dig at you as I don't have your posts in mind saying that, it's an explanation of why I might not respond to future posts - I may not be reading. Debates about definitions just don't interest me.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 04:41:37 AM by D-503 »
I roll to disbelieve.

Anon Adderlan

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Hey, Pundit? Your opinion on storytelling games?
« Reply #699 on: August 10, 2012, 08:16:21 AM »
Here are the two threads on Immersion from The Forge. I post them here because what they say, and what people here say they say, are two entirely different things:
Quote from: LordVreeg;569238
It is important to note that I am a believer in fundamental subjectiviity and Isolation.  There is an unknowability that exists in another's mind, a fundamental mystery of the dynamics and processes of another that I need to declare as a preamble.


I also believe that this unknowability extends into one's own mind as well to a lesser or greater extent. So accepted.

Quote from: LordVreeg;569238
As a matter of fact, it is that attitude of internal perfection and self-knowledge that bedevils therapists and behavioral experts, for when a subject is not open to change or analysis, it drastically reduces the means to affect change or allow for growth.


Agreed.

Quote from: LordVreeg;569238
Because the discovery of the partial or full falseness of a person's perception of their internal experience or process is not just commonplace, it is constant.


Also agreed. But where does this falseness come from? Why aren't they seeing the world objectively? More to the point, how can they NOT see the world objectively?

For some reason people fill in the blanks or falsify input. They do this automatically and subconsciously. They make shit up without being aware of doing so!

Quote from: LordVreeg;569238
Fundamental Subjectivity, while real, is NOT a blanket defence against analysis or questioning the internal process.  It is not an unassailable position or even a decent argument.


Quite true, which is why I didn't just state what was going on in my head; I also included the methods I used to achieve it, because that's the only objective thing which can be measured and designed to.

Quote from: LordVreeg;569238
I am stating that just because your immersion and your opinion of that experience is internal and personal does not make it true, and I tried, perhaps poorly or perhaps in the wrong way, to follow and to justify the position of why that might be.  Please feel to engage from here and we can restart if necessary.


Fair enough. I take back my insults and apologize.

But let me point out that internal experience is only a lie when it comes to external stimuli. When it comes to games the internal experience IS the reality. And the very fact that the internal experience can diverge from the objective real world means that people can make their reality up without being cognizant of it.

That's my point, and the reason I make it here is because the main difference between roleplaying and story games here seems based on the fact that in a storygame you are explicitly aware you are making up the fiction, while in an RPG it all happens much more intuitively and seamlessly.