Quote from: Justin Alexander;787384(You might map major thoroughfares, the same way that major highways or rivers would be indicated on your wilderness hex map.)

Good idea.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;787384... so one thing you'll want to develop is a key indicating at least three states: Open (there are lots of tunnels leading from this hex to that hex), Closed (there are no tunnels leading from this hex to that hex), and Chokepoint (you can get from this hex to that hex, but only by passing through a specific keyed location; a given chokepoint could also be a secret that needs to be discovered).

How about a solid line on the inside of the hex along the affected edge to indicate "closed" and a perforated line to indicate "chokepoint"?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;787384The industry has developed a fairly standard "vocabulary" of wilderness terrain types. (These actually predate D&D and were inherited from Outdoor Survival.) IMO, you're going to want to develop a similarly interesting vocabulary of at least 4-5 different Underdark terrain types. This is to make the map more interesting, but also to help contextualize the PCs as they explore/navigate the Underdark.

I was already working on three distinct "general" terrain types for this specific small stretch of the Underdark. How do these sound (not meant to be realistic)?

Cylinder Clusters: These are large tight clusters of tall (30 to 60 feet) tube like chambers (20 to 30 feet in diameter) stuck next to each other at varying heights and generally linked by weak points in their walls that have cracked open. Getting to these openings can be quite a climbing challenge, as the rock is usually smooth but for fissures. The roofs are covered by formations of chubby white stalactites that glisten as if wet and end in unusually rounded points. The floors are usually covered by forests of peculiar grey plants that look like tree trunks without branches or leaves and have a spongy yet tough texture. Their tops are flat and scaly, and with some skill it is possible to balance or even hop around on top of them. They are usually 4 to 5 feet in diameter and range from 15 to 20 feet tall.

Gums and Teeth: These bruise-purple caverns and tunnels are quite hot, and sometimes have open flows of scalding mud flowing through them. The rock surfaces have a puffy texture, and jagged chunks of worthless yellow crystal stab out of them at all angles; these chunks are usually just fist-sized, but some can be at big as a human. The ceiling can often get quite low, forcing a stooped or even crawling posture. The life forms around here mostly consists of yellow, brown and black fungi that forms like ropy vines along the walls with the occasional balloon-like growth sticking out of them.

Sanded Pebbles: These spacious caverns have surfaces that appear to be made of fused black pebbles. Most of them contain shallow layers of sand or salty water. Scraggly, spidery pale grey plants hang from the ceilings and seem to wave and sway on their own. A few of the ceilings have cracks that drip water or form full-fledged waterfalls.

Quote from: fuseboy;787434Excellent post, Justin.

This is an excellent post. It reminds me of several less organized thoughts I've had on the subject when running adventures in Moria for various middle earth games I've DM'd.

I don't think you really need a z axis actually, unless you are trying to measure distance accurately, which I do not think you should do either. The Underdark is an otherworldly realm and, imo, should operate differently than the surface world. I determine all travel times randomly- even if one is moving over previously traveled routes. ERB's Pelluicidar and Grell's Skartaris both have funky time in relation to the surface world- and their own component regions; I think the underdark should as well.
Anyway, fuck hexes, they don't do anything you can't with a numbered key and a ruler and they fuck the individuality of the map.



Individual caverns can be mapped in a more traditional way, however.

I think hexmapping treats the underdark to much like normal terrain.

I'd favor a map much like the example given by Gib, with the change that the underdark is unstable. Umber Hulks, Beholders and other Gribblies dig new tunnels at all times. The earth moves, collapsing passages here and opening new ones there. Underground watermasses flood into and out of areas. And that is ignoring all the overt supernatural qualities the underdark might have.

So I'd organize all the stable landmarks, represent them with stones or craft store pearls or some such, then connect with various colors of string, representing kinds of connection (blue: underground water, black: chasm or chimney, grey: normal tunnels, etc). Then regularly reorganize the strings, accompanied in-game by rockslides, minor earthquakes, floods or volcanic activity.

In game maps would be real freaky and hard to read. The most simple might be simmilar to the map in the third Pirates of the Caribbean movie

I would probably consider a node-based map/point crawl. Note average travel times between each zone/point of interest, you can still use your encounter charts/ chances of becoming lost, etc, and narrate the cavern sections much like wilderness travel. Record what notable events and discoveries occur during these treks between nodes and eventually the group will be able to navigate those passages via landmarks and eliminate the lost checks forthe areas they've become familiar with.

Not really given it much thought. Seems pretty similar to a standard hex crawl with a bit more abstraction.

Those maps are really fun... just crying out to be explored. Hex maps seldom appeal to me that way.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;787448How about a solid line on the inside of the hex along the affected edge to indicate "closed" and a perforated line to indicate "chokepoint"?

Oh. I like the perforation!

I've been using two parallel lines perpendicular to the hex border to indicate open. (Like drawing a little "passage" between the hexes.) A solid line along the hex border for closed. And I've been using "C" and "S" for chokepoints and secret passages (basically just lifting the dungeon mapping convention).

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;787448I was already working on three distinct "general" terrain types for this specific small stretch of the Underdark. How do these sound (not meant to be realistic)?

Love it. Particularly the fact that they're not realistic.

Quote from: Gib;787543

I was kind curious to see what converting something like this to a hexmap would look like. There are a couple kludges (where I might have been better off treat multiple pictured caverns as a single hex with multiple keyed locations), but without any terrain or key this is the basic skeleton:



Obviously the crude sketch I whipped off in 2 minutes is not as evocative, but if I was running at a table featuring players trying to make meaningful navigation decisions I'd much rather run from this map.

One thing I did discover here is the need/utility for long passages that eschew the hex structure by being longer than the abstraction of the hex. Good to know. (This type of discovery is why I occasionally tackle theoretical exercises like this.)

I think that hexmaps really isn't the ideal way to handle the Underdark.

Quote from: Snowman0147;787279Don't know if hex crawl can be done.  To map the underdark you have to think of the third dimension.  A proper underdark map would need a x, y, and z axis.

Isometric maps were all the rage during the late 80s-early 90s TSR. Wilderness Survival even had a little section on how to map isometrically for cavern crawling.

Quote from: Omega;788283Isometric maps were all the rage during the late 80s-early 90s TSR. Wilderness Survival even had a little section on how to map isometrically for cavern crawling.

True; but this is also not all that useful from the orientation/perspective of handling dungeon movement.

I think ultimately the underdark needs to be handled as dungeon maps for caverns; unless you're talking truly GIGANTIC large-caves that would really necessitate an 'outdoor map' approach.

That can happen; I mean, in Arrows of Indra, the Patala Underworld can have (in some of its levels) single caverns the size of entire countries, with major terrain/geographical features, flora and fauna, and cities or even multiple political divisions (city-states, kingdoms, tribal regions, whatever) within them.

Quote from: RPGPundit;788648unless you're talking truly GIGANTIC large-caves that would really necessitate an 'outdoor map' approach.

In my case that's exactly the issue. I needed over 30 miles of Underdark to make my desire for wilderness exploration work with the massive closed city I'm using.

Question for you folks: You do normally keep all your hex maps hidden from your players, don't you? That's what I'm planning to do in order to help with the illusion that everything is 3D when in fact it's a highly abstracted 2D presentation ("as you travel south the tunnels begin to spiral deeper into regions of dull purple rock" etc.).

How to Host a Dungeon is a pretty fun little system that creates an underground area, lots of caverns usually, that develops its own history. All mapped out vertically instead of horizontally.

So by the time you are done you have an underdark area that is populated and things have happened in before the PCs arrive.

Nicely done example map someone generated.


In one of my playthroughs the clockwork people (rethemed demons) built a strange civilization deep below and then were wiped out by the dwarves following an ore vein through. Radiation pits and a strange gate still lay near the dwarven halls. These halls are empty as a strange wasting sickness overtook the dwarves when they tunneled into one of the pits. Later a delving group of mushroom beings moved into the clockwork ruins. And so on.