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Author Topic: HERO vs. GURPS vs. Savage Worlds  (Read 12138 times)

Abraxus

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HERO vs. GURPS vs. Savage Worlds
« Reply #90 on: August 01, 2019, 06:12:05 AM »
If one goes by what one sees with SJGames says in their report to shareholders both Discworld and Mars Attacks for Gurps 4E sold yet very poorly. Certainly not enough to have justified releasing them in 4E. Out of the two the only one that seems worth the effort was Discworld. Even then it was somewhat of a risk as while Pratchett is well known and the series somewhat popular. The books are not popular enough for SJGames to have wasted the time and effort. When I worked at the bookstore many customers unless they were fans of fantasy did not know who or what Discworld was. I introduced and tried to introduce many to his works with mixed results.

The cover art of his books turned many off the series. His style which while enjoyable does not lend to reading many of his books in one sitting. Read 3-5 take a break. Many were not interested in reading comedic fantasy or that many books. My point being he is popular though not as much as one would think or want. Another issue is that the 3E of the book was pretty good. Many even fans of 4E simply used that and converted over. Don't even get me started on Mars Attacks now that imo was  waste of time and effort. Especially when many were and are asking for Gurps vehicles for 4E. Yes I know it is being worked on for at least a decade or more. If it is not is not in stores at this point I am close to considering the rpg equivalent of vaporware.

Dungeon Fantasy was a very good step in the right direction unfortunately like the Hero System fanbase not enough fans want that level of complexity and crucnhiness and voted with their wallets and at this point perhaps too little too late. I see some here say that D&D does not come with a setting and that is true yet unlike Gurps many are willing to overlook that flaw as imo the system is still easier to teach to newcomers to the hobby. The fans are also the problem as they refuse to want any changes to the either Gurps or Hero in their current form. Yet expect a miraculous Renaissance for both which will never come back. As once again the gamers voted with their wallets. Which is towards rules light less crunchy rpgs like Fate and Savage Worlds. Which fans of both refuse and pretend to accept. As Hero Games is on life support and Gurps is seeing less and less support from sJGames with the company focusing on more profitable IPs in their company. Again they flat out stat that in their report to shareholders which I notice the fans ignore.

TheShadow

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« Reply #91 on: August 01, 2019, 06:32:53 AM »
Quote from: Jaeger;1097844

Until the Gurps and Hero people are willing to take a real top down look at their system like D&D has done over several editions, their influence in the hobby will continue to dwindle.

Influence? Dwindle?? The dwindling occurred long ago my friend and the influence is pretty much zero.
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dbm

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« Reply #92 on: August 01, 2019, 08:03:36 AM »
Quote from: sureshot;1097851
If one goes by what one sees with SJGames says in their report to shareholders both Discworld and Mars Attacks for Gurps 4E sold yet very poorly.

For sure, I said the same above :)

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Especially when many were and are asking for Gurps vehicles for 4E. Yes I know it is being worked on for at least a decade or more. If it is not is not in stores at this point I am close to considering the rpg equivalent of vaporware.

It is a bit of a curate's egg, in my opinion. It is, at the same time, the product that is both highly requested and (at least in 3e guise) the poster-child for 'GURPS is too complex' as a meme.

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Dungeon Fantasy was a very good step in the right direction unfortunately like the Hero System fanbase not enough fans want that level of complexity and crucnhiness and voted with their wallets and at this point perhaps too little too late.

The problem with many of these initiatives is that the current fan base have largely already got this stuff, certainly they don't need the box set. Though, I have personally found it extremely useful in arranging an intro game for players used to RPGs but not GURPS specifically. I think SJG's marketing is poor and they fail to put across well the strong points of GURPS in a way to attract new gamers into the system.

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I see some here say that D&D does not come with a setting and that is true yet unlike Gurps many are willing to overlook that flaw as imo the system is still easier to teach to newcomers to the hobby.

I disagree that D&D is easier to teach new players. It may be easier for new players to learn 'all of it' versus all of GURPS (even the bits just focussed on Dungeon Fantasy) but GURPS is more reality based and so players can try anything they would try in the real world. D&D is more stylised in how it plays (at least for 3rd edition onwards). I think the big difference between D&D and GURPS is that there has been a dearth of GM-assets in the form of monsters, adventures and so on. To SJG credit they are working hard on that and making real progress. There is a significant body of work available for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy in particular and the are slowly opening up to 3rd party publishing which will allow this to accelerate.

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The fans are also the problem as they refuse to want any changes to the either Gurps or Hero in their current form.

There are True Believers for most systems, and I agree that GURPS can attract a certain kind of detail-obsessed players. But there are also people like myself for whom GURPS is just 'good enough' whilst without being perfect. I've yet to find that perfect game...

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Yet expect a miraculous Renaissance for both which will never come back. As once again the gamers voted with their wallets. Which is towards rules light less crunchy rpgs like Fate and Savage Worlds. Which fans of both refuse and pretend to accept.

GURPS isn't going to be for everyone, for sure. And that is cool. In this inter-connected world the trick is finding the audience who want what you are offering and that (again) is where I think SJG are failing. The fans need to spread the word more, too. So I am trying to do my bit without shilling ;)

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As Hero Games is on life support and Gurps is seeing less and less support from sJGames with the company focusing on more profitable IPs in their company. Again they flat out stat that in their report to shareholders which I notice the fans ignore.

Here's a link to the latest one. It paints a fairly brutal picture. The only GURPS product in the top-40 by sales value is Characters. If SJG was publicly traded then GURPS would have been put to pasture long ago. It is only SJ's personal patronage that keeps it running. These things get regularly and hotly discussed on the SJG forums, too, btw.

I don't think SJG are pulling back from supporting GURPS at the moment. They are in a transitional period away from the regular publishing of Pyramid into a model where you get more 'proper' supplements throughout the year. That just hasn't started to pay out yet, however if you look at the GURPS News you'll see that they have eight new releases in production. Also, GURPS has only ever had two full-time resources on it in recent years (Kromm and P. Kitty) and they are still there, even if P. Kitty is rarely heard from as he is head-down in a big project that hasn't yet been announced.

There was also an interesting hint that GURPS Girl Genius is still a live project, too.

So, GURPS isn't dead yet...

Rhedyn
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« Reply #93 on: August 01, 2019, 08:57:05 AM »
GURPS can't take the Savage Worlds approach of having a bunch of setting unique books. It's too hard to make shit for.

Specific builds (Dungeon Fantasy), Bestiaries, and modules is a route they could go aside from fleshing out their core (vehicles?).

GURPS also suffers from being "done". A veteran Savage Worlds GM is splicing in new book combos with each campaign while a veteran GURPS GM doesn't need developers anymore.

Steven Mitchell

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« Reply #94 on: August 01, 2019, 09:09:39 AM »
The biggest problem with GURPS and Hero System are not players but GMs.  Anyone that really wants to run a game of GURPS or Hero can package it in a way that it is accessible to new players.  As I said above, I did it for multiple groups for a decade.  

The systems are a drain on many GMs.  You can talk about ways around the various problems all you want, but eventually many GMs will say, "Well then, if it requires all that, then I'll do something else, thanks."  Nor can you simply compare something like amount of prep time.  Not all prep time is created equal.  I spend about the same amount of time on D&D 5E that I did on D&D 3E that I did on Hero.  (It's slightly less on 5E, but not significant given that the difference could be explained by being more experienced.)  The big difference for me is that almost all the prep time on 5E is fun, whereas almost all the prep time for 3E and Hero is work.  That part is somewhat subjective, at least the characterization of it is.  When I was first doing Hero, I liked fiddling with the numbers and seeing what I could make.  Gradually, I liked it less and less, until finally I didn't like it at all--thus "work".

Obviously, the exact reason is going to vary from GM to GM--but the fact remains that the pool of possible GMs who will enjoy running a system similar to Hero is much smaller than it is for D&D or other simpler games.  Fewer GMs--fewer games.

estar

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« Reply #95 on: August 01, 2019, 10:06:12 AM »
Quote from: Rhedyn;1097866
GURPS can't take the Savage Worlds approach of having a bunch of setting unique books. It's too hard to make shit for.


I disagree from dealing with the system for 20+ years. It not trival but it no harder or easier than any other system being marketed.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1097866
GURPS also suffers from being "done". A veteran Savage Worlds GM is splicing in new book combos with each campaign while a veteran GURPS GM doesn't need developers anymore.
There are very few product that implement GURPS for something specific. So I disagree that GURPS is done.

Skarg

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« Reply #96 on: August 01, 2019, 04:12:55 PM »
Yeah, I wouldn't say GURPS is "hard to make shit for".

GMs I've known and seen on GURPS forums who get into GURPS tend to enjoy making stuff for it. A GM can also go to those forums (or GURPS Discord) and just ask and get answers (e.g. "Hey how would you model a psycho killer using a pitchfork, shovel, and chainsaw as weapons?" and you'll very quickly get answers both telling you which books and articles already stat those out, and probably other people offering their own opinions and optional ways to do it).

And GURPS could have all sorts of material made for it, especially detailed ready-to-use stuff for an infinite possible range of campaigns and settings. I think the reason they don't do that is that the people at SJG don't tend to see the potential, and/or most of their trusted writers don't tend to do that sort of style. There are some, though, such as the few ready-to-play GURPS adventures that have been released, and what Douglas at Gaming Ballistic has done for Dungeon Fantasy (and is now producing for TFT).

Jaeger

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« Reply #97 on: August 01, 2019, 06:06:13 PM »
Quote from: The_Shadow;1097854
Influence? Dwindle?? The dwindling occurred long ago my friend and the influence is pretty much zero.


I was trying to be nice... I have a big heart.

Quote from: dbm;1097846
Pratchett is pretty popular as an author, and has moved well past simple fantasy pastiche. If you want to bring genuinely new people into the hobby, something like this sounds like a good option....


Maybe it looked good on paper, but…

Quote from: sureshot;1097851
If one goes by what one sees with SJGames says in their report to shareholders both Discworld and Mars Attacks for Gurps 4E sold very poorly… Certainly not enough to have justified releasing them in 4E....


It's not even about bringing new people into the hobby at this point for SJG. It's about getting people already in the hobby to give SJG/Gurps a chance.

As to settings:

Quote from: dbm;1097846
Well, D&D has spent most of it's history coming without a setting. Fate Core comes without one, so does Savage Worlds. With an RPG intended to cover a lot of game space having a campaign world built in is far from essential. Last time I looked at Mythras it also lacked a game world beyond an 'implied setting', which GURPS Dungeon Fantasy also has. ...


D&D was trying to figure itself out at first – but since 1977 there has always been a setting available for D&D: Blackmoor, greyhawk, Mystara, forgotten realms, etc.  Savages worlds landed with 2 settings from the get go: evernight and 50 fathoms. And has more SW based stand-alone games on offer since. Mythras got good will due to RQ6 success, and took a built in player base with them. Yet the Mythras publishers saw fit to offer multiple campaign settings post release. Fate core did come without a setting, yet Evil hat saw fit to publish Spirit of the century, Dresden files, atomic robo; all complete stand-alone fate games, with more coming.

Quote from: dbm;1097846
But no game should sacrifice it's strengths for a 'me too' attempt at sales...


Fate and Savage worlds are doing what SJG/Gurps are not. And they are growing, and coming out with new complete games every year or so. That people buy.  Meanwhile, Gurps…

Quote from: dbm;1097846
That's cool, GURPS clearly isn't for you. It doesn't need to be for everyone....


True. But if they want to increase their player base the Gurps needs to make itself amenable to more people.

But it is a perfectly valid choice for them to just keep doing what they are doing.

Quote from: dbm;1097846
...being able to quickly create a character isn't really a plus. ...


That's just crazy talk! Quick PC creation is always a plus.

Quote from: dbm;1097846
GURPS is clearly a game that follows a different furrow than the majority of 'new' games, but that doesn't make it inherently 'bad'. ....


Not inherently bad, no. But in its current form it is bad for getting new people to take a real look at the system.

Quote from: sureshot;1097851
Dungeon Fantasy was a very good step in the right direction unfortunately like the Hero System fanbase not enough fans want that level of complexity and crucnhiness and voted with their wallets and at this point perhaps too little too late. ... The fans are also the problem as they refuse to want any changes to the either Gurps or Hero in their current form. ... ...


Truth.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1097866
GURPS can't take the Savage Worlds approach of having a bunch of setting unique books. It's too hard to make shit for..


If it is too hard than that should be seen as a sign that SJG needs to take a similar approach with Gurps what Pinnacle did with their original deadlands rules – which were distilled down and became Savage worlds.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1097866
GURPS also suffers from being "done". A veteran Savage Worlds GM is splicing in new book combos with each campaign while a veteran GURPS GM doesn't need developers anymore.


But a default mode of GM's doing all the work, all the time, does not attract new GM's. Gurps needs better 'gateway drug' games to get the non-veteran GM's to actually give the system a look.

This line is totally out of touch:
Quote from: dbm;1097846
… In my opinion the biggest challenge GURPS faces is a paucity of GM tools to make running the game easier. ….


The biggest tool SJG can give GM's to make running the game easier? Easy: A less complex game.

And they could start with releasing an actual Lite version of Gurps. Not a 32 page Gurps rules summary, with the other 300 pages available when you buy the big book.
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dbm

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« Reply #98 on: August 01, 2019, 06:21:30 PM »
Quote from: Jaeger;1097913
D&D was trying to figure itself out at first – but since 1977 there has always been a setting available for D&D: Blackmoor, greyhawk, Mystara, forgotten realms, etc.  Savages worlds landed with 2 settings from the get go: evernight and 50 fathoms. And has more SW based stand-alone games on offer since. Mythras got good will due to RQ6 success, and took a built in player base with them. Yet the Mythras publishers saw fit to offer multiple campaign settings post release. Fate core did come without a setting, yet Evil hat saw fit to publish Spirit of the century, Dresden files, atomic robo; all complete stand-alone fate games, with more coming.

There is, actually a campaign in the Campaigns book, and all the example PCs come from it (Infinite Worlds), it just isn't very popular. There has also been Banestorm for most of 4e, which is a fantasy campaign world. But, to be fair writing engaging campaigns is clearly not SJG strong point. That is why the new openness to third party publishers is so important.

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That's just crazy talk! Quick PC creation is always a plus.

You carefully cropped the end of my statement, that the ability to create a character quickly for a game you don't want to play is worthless.

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But a default mode of GM's doing all the work, all the time, does not attract new GM's. Gurps needs better 'gateway drug' games to get the non-veteran GM's to actually give the system a look.

Sounds like you agree with me that making the GM's task easier is key to success, so I don't see why you think I am out of touch?

Quote
The biggest tool SJG can give GM's to make running the game easier? Easy: A less complex game.

I refer you back to Discworld, which is complete in one book, and Dungeon Fantasy RPG which is complete in four thin pamphlets.

oggsmash

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« Reply #99 on: August 01, 2019, 08:51:36 PM »
Honestly their core rule books read like stereo instructions (GURPS and HERO 5th at least), their art  sucks and their iconic chars are the least inspiring bunch I have ever seen.  Those things are all the "hooks" to bring people in, and they are all terribad.  I love gurps. I think at this point I have nearly every printed 4th edition book they have (discworld and the vorksogian whatever was not my taste, and I missed the hardback Thaumatology...might get the soft cover, but enough of that, I see 18 hardbacks at least as I type this, so I am in) Saying it is no harder than any other system on the market is being out of touch.  Big time.  My group I started with Gurps.  I still get to explain things from time to time.  They caught on to Savage Worlds MUCH faster.  They caught on to DCC even faster.   Savage Worlds has done several things that are very, very good ideas.  A corebook that they shrank down to a perfect paperback version and sold for 10 bucks was really smart IMO.  It gets players to buy books as well.  IME GMs are the guys with lots and lots of books.  Players get by with the minimum.

   I think Dungeon Fantasy was a HUGE step in the right direction.  I think they need a setting for that, and even better, do a goodman games like riff and start kicking out adventures for that.    I think SJG is not new to the game though, and doesnt do that because he doesnt think the numbers are going to work.  We can all hope all the newer generation of role players D&D seems to be producing or bringing older folks back to RPGs ends up with Gurps.  I wont hold my breath.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 09:10:00 PM by oggsmash »

Jaeger

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« Reply #100 on: August 01, 2019, 09:51:50 PM »
Quote from: dbm;1097915
There is, actually a campaign in the Campaigns book, and all the example PCs come from it (Infinite Worlds), it just isn't very popular. There has also been Banestorm for most of 4e, which is a fantasy campaign world. But, to be fair writing engaging campaigns is clearly not SJG strong point. That is why the new openness to third party publishers is so important.

100% agreement.


Quote from: dbm;1097915
I refer you back to Discworld, which is complete in one book, and Dungeon Fantasy RPG which is complete in four thin pamphlets.

And I refer you back to my previous posts where the issues with each were addressed.  


Quote from: dbm;1097915
Sounds like you agree with me that making the GM's task easier is key to success, so I don't see why you think I am out of touch?

Because you appear to not see any value in going through Gurps from the top down and actually making it less complex! I already highlighted a few issues just with the chargen in so-called "Gurps Lite" that could easily be streamlined.

And your response was: "That's cool, GURPS clearly isn't for you. It doesn't need to be for everyone..."

Just look at this mess:

Wounding Modifiers and Injury
Any damage left over after subtracting
DR from basic damage is "penetrating damage."
If there is any penetrating damage,
multiply it by the attack's "wounding modifier."
This is a multiplier that depends on
damage type:
• Small piercing (pi-): x0.5.
• Cutting (cut) and large piercing (pi+):
x1.5.
• Impaling (imp): x2.


What!? You though you could put that calculator away after figuring encumbrance? BWAHAHAHAHAHAH! Fuck you!

LOLZ! Every time you do enough damage to get past someones armor you get to calculate again! This is RPG like a man!

Fuck no.

How about in an actual "GURPS LITE" we do this instead:

Wounding Modifiers and Injury:
Any damage left over after subtracting
DR from basic damage, is Subtracted from the opponents HP.


Don't you think a full rules overhaul like that for a new system/setting Gurps Lite RPG, would make the game more palatable to new players?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 10:06:05 PM by Jaeger »
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Aglondir

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« Reply #101 on: August 02, 2019, 12:04:42 AM »
Quote from: Jaeger;1097944
Don't you think a full rules overhaul like that for a new system/setting Gurps Lite RPG, would make the game more palatable to new players?

Yes.

Aglondir

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« Reply #102 on: August 02, 2019, 12:07:45 AM »
Quote from: oggsmash;1097938
Honestly their core rule books read like stereo instructions (GURPS and HERO 5th at least), their art sucks and their iconic chars are the least inspiring bunch I have ever seen.

The Gurps iconics are dull, but I love the classic Champions villains and heroes, even better than some Marvel and DC offerings.

dbm

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« Reply #103 on: August 02, 2019, 04:23:37 AM »
Quote from: Jaeger;1097944
Don't you think a full rules overhaul like that for a new system/setting Gurps Lite RPG, would make the game more palatable to new players?


Two thoughts on this: first, I don't want GURPS to become Savage Worlds or Fate, those niches are already covered. So a complete re-engineering of the system would just serve to alienate the existing player base in a D&D 4e style.

Second, they do take steps to help manage the on-ramp through their 'worked example' series like Action, and Dungeon Fantasy. I'm about 30 hours into a DF campaign with my group who are RPG experts (pretty much all of us have been playing over 30 years) but half of them didn't have a previous positive experience of GURPS from the couple of times they had tried it, and the other half were ambivalent but not keen to run it.

As a person who is not a fan of D&D (our go-to game) I want help the group get familiar with GURPS and start to enjoy it's strengths and options versus other games we play. This is happening - they are starting to really enjoy the tactical depth in the combat system and the ability to really fine-tune their characters outside of combat, too. We have tried both Savage Worlds and Fate and neither was enjoyable for the group. The thing that spurred me on to run this game was the Dungeon Fantasy box set and follow-on products they have created.

This is why I say what GURPS really needs is more people talking about the good games they run with it, then people who want GURPS offers will find it.

estar

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« Reply #104 on: August 02, 2019, 10:10:29 AM »
GURPS problem isn't the rule system, it is the presentation. Until recent years, GURPS 4th edition doubled down on presenting the GURPS in a series of toolkit written as reference books with little if any support material. While this has changed along with the release of the Dungeon Fantasy RPG, GURPS still lags in this.

And GURPS needs list of stuff that are presented well like Monsters and Treasures.

My view that is not any more complicated than that. However because of collapse of interest in GURPS, anybody doing this is forced to start from scratch in terms of promotion. So coming up with a decent presentation isn't going to be a magic bullet right away. It has to be part of an promotional effort to show why it works as well it does. And this includes support like a small stable of adventure and other supplemental material that other fantasy RPGs have.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 10:14:53 AM by estar »