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Author Topic: "Hero Points" Not all created equal...  (Read 3141 times)

Jaeger

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"Hero Points" Not all created equal...
« on: February 24, 2009, 12:42:31 PM »
They can go by many names: Hero, Fate, etc. But the general idea is the same.

A group of replentishable point that players can spend to help thier PC's.

The type I like:
Hero points that give bonuses to PC actions. Like when you're finally confonting the big bad, or you just have to make the jump on to the leaving ship. It's nice to have a little something to ensure the badassness of your PC is not in doubt in such situations.
 
Player:"I attack the black knight and spend a point to boost my roll..."
GM: " Ohhh nice roll.. you did nasty damage..."


The type I hate:
The kind that allows narrative control... this drives me nuts. If players want to dictate enemy action then they should play a solo game where nothing unexpected could happen.

Player: "Actually that didn't happen, I spend a point to make his guns jam and blow up in his face..'
GM: "The fuck!?"

How do you feel about them...

.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 12:43:04 PM by Jaeger »
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KenHR

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"Hero Points" Not all created equal...
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2009, 12:45:43 PM »
When I see them used, I definitely hate the type you hate.

I like them when they're used to allow re-rolls (as in Savage Worlds) rather than a straight-up bonus.  It preserves a bit of the "game" or "gambling" aspect that I like.
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Drohem

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"Hero Points" Not all created equal...
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2009, 12:49:28 PM »
I like the illusion of immersion and continuity in-game, so I fall in the type that you like as well.  I like points that provide a bonus to a roll or action prior to actually doing it in-game.  Like KenHR, I also don't like them to allow re-rolls.

Soylent Green

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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2009, 01:14:41 PM »
I am for Fate points, yes even the ones that allow you to tinker with stuff only GM normally can change.

I dont like GM having to fudge dice rolls and if you have a Fate point system in place there shold be no need for that.
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1of3

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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2009, 02:02:33 PM »
Quote from: Jaeger;285494
The type I hate:
The kind that allows narrative control... this drives me nuts. If players want to dictate enemy action then they should play a solo game where nothing unexpected could happen.

Player: "Actually that didn't happen, I spend a point to make his guns jam and blow up in his face..'
GM: "The fuck!?"


Could you name a few games with that particular mechanism? I don't remember any.

Claudius

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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2009, 02:13:53 PM »
Quote from: Soylent Green;285501
I dont like GM having to fudge dice rolls and if you have a Fate point system in place there shold be no need for that.

Exactly what I think. I have always hated fudging dice rolls, I belong to the "let the dice fall where they may" school. That's the reason why I like good hero points systems, they allow you to achieve the same results you get with fudging rolls, but without the fudging part.
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jhkim

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"Hero Points" Not all created equal...
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2009, 03:16:10 PM »
Quote from: 1of3;285520
Could you name a few games with that particular mechanism? I don't remember any.

Examples of narrative control would be Drama Points in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG / Angel RPG (aka "Cinematic Unisystem") - where you can spend one for a "Plot Twist"; or Fate Points in the Mongoose Conan RPG, where you can spend for a "Destiny".  

Quote
Destiny: You can at any time spend one or more Fate Points, with the agreement of the Games Master, to alter the world in some minor way.  Essentially, this allows you the player to have some input into the story, over and above the actions of your character.  This change must be one that is plausible, minor, and not overwhelmingly beneficial to the player characters. It may well assist them to accomplish their goal, but they must still accomplish the goals by their own strength and wits, not simply by spending Fate Points!

For example, a character captured by the law and imprisoned might spend a Fate Point to have a chance at escape -- a comrade or slave girl smuggling him in a dagger, or a drunken guard, or the discovery of a loose chunk of granite with which to smash open his ankle-chain -- not have his escape handed to him on a plate by a sorcerer magically putting all the guards to sleep and bursting his door open.

Besides narrative control, one thing about points where you decide afterwards (i.e. like for re-rolls) is that you can do more with less.

i.e. Suppose you have a spend-before system where you can add +4 to a roll, but you must decide before the roll.  This means that players will pause more before each roll to decide whether to spend, and many times when they spend it won't make a difference (i.e. they fail anyway, or they would have succeeded anyway).  Spend-afterwards points mean that points can be used less often for the same effect, so they are in that way less intrusive.  

I usually prefer points that can be spent afterwards for a fixed effect, because I find that spending a point but failing anyway is always a downer.  (Also, it is a more minor downer to spend a point but succeed without needing the bonus.)

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"Hero Points" Not all created equal...
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2009, 03:31:02 PM »
It all depends on the game and the setting.   For Buffy, it makes sense to have Drama points that can affect the narrative.  For Stormbringer, not so much.

I have always enjoyed Warhammer's Fate points because as I play them, spending a Fate points you out of certain death...with some unusual and unforseen complication.

arminius

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"Hero Points" Not all created equal...
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2009, 03:43:45 PM »
How about a system where by spending a point before the roll, you get a bonus (either a plus, or bonus dice in a dice pool, or you roll twice and take the better result)...AND by definition, what you do is awesome.

I.e., you can still fail, but not for any reason that's your fault. So if you're lining up a sniper shot and you spend a point, then a failure will mean something like the target stooped to pick up his hat, or someone else unexpectedly walked in front of him or something, not that you're a lousy shot.

Just a thought, combining a few different ideas about hero points and resolution.

Joey2k

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"Hero Points" Not all created equal...
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2009, 04:11:35 PM »
Quote from: Soylent Green;285501

I dont like GM having to fudge dice rolls and if you have a Fate point system in place there shold be no need for that.


I see this as six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I don't like them at all.  Let the dice fall where they may, I say.
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HinterWelt

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"Hero Points" Not all created equal...
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2009, 04:56:13 PM »
Squirrels use Karma. Supers Inc. uses Karma. Zombipocalypse will use action points. Karma is, much as John pointed out, a spend after system. ZP Action Points will be a mix and something different than that.

The problem is, generally, I don't like Action Points/Fate Points/Whathaveyou Points. The best I can say is that I do not mind them too much when you apply them to what the character can do as opposed to what they should have done.
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GeekEclectic

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"Hero Points" Not all created equal...
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2009, 05:27:36 PM »
1/10 Railing against imaginary things is kind of weird. None of the games I know of that use points for narrative control allow anything even remotely as extreme as controlling enemy actions and having their weapons blow up. Not. A. Single. Game.
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"Hero Points" Not all created equal...
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2009, 05:57:50 PM »
For most games I find Fate/Drama points are a fix because the dice mechanics don't work the way the game really wants them to work. (M&M, DC Heroes, even my favorite MSH) It's a fix to a lack of forethought in the design to make the game work; well as intended before you add a patch on it.

On the other hand I like Buffy's Drama points because they allow SOME insertion of events (Plot twist, clues), without completely making it an out of character moment anymore than spending a point on a better die roll does. On the other hand, I'm finding Fate points in SOTC a bit of a bother, for having to be thought about and dragging people out of the game.
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Aos

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"Hero Points" Not all created equal...
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2009, 05:58:06 PM »
Quote from: Drohem;285497
I like the illusion of immersion and continuity in-game, so I fall in the type that you like as well.  I like points that provide a bonus to a roll or action prior to actually doing it in-game.  Like KenHR, I also don't like them to allow re-rolls.


I like the reroll type, for True20 especially. The damage save system can be a bit harsh, and that reroll can make the difference, at least until the points run out.
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KenHR

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"Hero Points" Not all created equal...
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2009, 06:52:11 PM »
Hey, I said I liked the reroll type, too!  That's the only type I really like.
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