Quote from: JackalopeThat's easy.  That's just a  basic Firestorm build.

You build the final character first, and you build all of his powers with usuable Only In Hero Identity.  This is one of the few builds where that limitation has real bite.

Then you give him a Follower or DNPC, depending on how useful you want him to be.  For the Firestorm build you go with Follower.  You also want to give the character Mind Link (Transdimensional, Only Usable With Follower, Only In Hero ID).

Then you give him Extra-Dimensional Travel (One Other Dimension), Transdimensional, Usable On Others, Only Usable On Follower.  This is the only power the character can use out of his hero ID.  You define the other dimension as "gesaltspace."

Finally, you give the hero this disad: May Only Assume Heroic Identity When Follower Is In Gesaltspace, Always Assumes Heroic Identity When Follower Is In Gesaltspace (Physical Limitation, Always, Major).

This is how it works:  Gesalt Member A is the hero out of his heroic identity, Gesalt Member B is the Follower.  Gesalt A transports Gesalt B to Gesaltspace and initiates the Mind Link.  This activates all of the character's powers.

Presto, Firestorm.

Doing a gesalt character like Zoltron is different.  You do that by creating a vehicle with Duplication, and give the main component a bunch of powers that only work when it's not duplicated.

Well, frankly, the points here just don't work out when you want to have more than a two-person setup (or even with a two-person setup, if you want the individual people to have powers).

Try doing that to make five people, each with an individual power set (and a color-themed costume ... Red Super, Blue Super, Pink Super, etc.) who then come together to become a Gestalt.  The rules on maximum points for Followers will kill you dead:  Each character will be a wet dish-rag on their own, and the gestalt itself will be barely more powerful.

Likewise with Duplication + Multiform ... the multiform cost breakdown is mathematically similar to that of Followers.

You could definitely do this in GURPS. It wouldn't be cheap, but it could be done.

Sounds plausible ... I don't think this is any great weakness of the HERO system, it's just a wierd little place where the baseline assumptions of the system (particularly about the character being a fundamental and self-contained unit) come together in a way that doesn't perfectly mimic the fiction.

Quote from: TonyLBWell, frankly, the points here just don't work out when you want to have more than a two-person setup (or even with a two-person setup, if you want the individual people to have powers).

Try doing that to make five people, each with an individual power set (and a color-themed costume ... Red Super, Blue Super, Pink Super, etc.) who then come together to become a Gestalt.  The rules on maximum points for Followers will kill you dead:  Each character will be a wet dish-rag on their own, and the gestalt itself will be barely more powerful.

Likewise with Duplication + Multiform ... the multiform cost breakdown is mathematically similar to that of Followers.

I missed the question to this answer.  It sounds like the previous method works fine for the specific case of Firestorm -- i.e. two normal people who can combine into a superhero.  However, it sounds like what you want is five superheroes who can combine together into a single mega-superhero.  Is that right?  Each is potentially its own PC, but they can combine to be a more powerful entity.  

There are multiple ways this can be done, but the underlying logic is clear -- at least four of the other characters need to lend power over to another entity.  That means Aid.  The simplest setup is that four characters multiform into boosters of the fifth.  In their "booster" form, they would put all their points into linked Aid and a limited Interdimensional Travel. Alternately, there could be a fifth character that is an entity to itself that they all turn into boosters of.

That certainly starts to sound more workable.  Aid was fairly new on the scene, the last time I was seriously posing this question 'round.

What's the range advantage to let the Aid cross dimensional boundaries, do you think?

Is there any reason not to

• Create the 5 individual PCs;
• Stat up the MegaComboPentaPC; and
• Switch from the group to the single when it comes up in game, and get to whackin' ass?

I ask this because I like HERO quite well, but it was one of the things that prompted me to re-examine how I approach all this goofiness we call gaming: "Just 'cause I CAN stat out a towel, do I HAVE to?"

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Is there any reason not to

• Create the 5 individual PCs;
• Stat up the MegaComboPentaPC; and
• Switch from the group to the single when it comes up in game, and get to whackin' ass?

None whatsoever.  The question is purely one that appeals to the system gear-head in me.  I'm a long time fan of HERO, and I like to fiddle with it and see how to do unlikely things by the letter of the law.

Quote from: TonyLBThat certainly starts to sound more workable.  Aid was fairly new on the scene, the last time I was seriously posing this question 'round.

What's the range advantage to let the Aid cross dimensional boundaries, do you think?

Really?  Aid was introduced in 4th edition in 1989.  

Aid can be done in one big action -- you don't have to continuously be in range.  By linking the powers, they are required to go off at the same time and the Aid only needs zero range.  So the five characters all come together touching each other, then they set off their linked power -- boosting the character they're touching and disappearing at the same time.  It'd be a limitation if they all had to do this at the same time.  

It seems reasonable under the system to link all three: Multiform, Aid, and Extra-Dimensional Movement.  i.e. They can only boost at the moment they change, which is the same time as they disappear.  In that case, it would just take a half phase in total.  (Aid counts as an attack action, so it always ends your phase.)

Quote from: jhkimReally?  Aid was introduced in 4th edition in 1989.

Yeah, but I started playing Champions right when it hit the shelves in 81, and my annoying teen years (where I took great relish in questions that made adults squirm) were just about ending by the time 4e came out  

Quote from: jhkimBy linking the powers, they are required to go off at the same time and the Aid only needs zero range.  So the five characters all come together touching each other, then they set off their linked power -- boosting the character they're touching and disappearing at the same time.  It'd be a limitation if they all had to do this at the same time.

Cool ... and the gradual rate of attrition of the Aid points (which would, actually, be pretty damn fast if it was from four separate instances of Aid, since they all have their own clocks) would work well with the motif that the Uber-Thing can only stay in joined form for a certain period of time.

Sounds like a good solution, thanks!

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Is there any reason not to

• Create the 5 individual PCs;
• Stat up the MegaComboPentaPC; and
• Switch from the group to the single when it comes up in game, and get to whackin' ass?

I ask this because I like HERO quite well, but it was one of the things that prompted me to re-examine how I approach all this goofiness we call gaming: "Just 'cause I CAN stat out a towel, do I HAVE to?"

Well, the questions you may have to answer are:

(1) How many points should the Gestalt character have?  
(2) What should the point cost of that be to the merging PCs?  
(3) What are the rules for dropping in and out of the combined form?  
(4) How can the gestalt ability can be blocked, neutralized, etc.?  

You can hand-wave #2 if all PCs in the party are part of this merge.  However, if the PCs include some gestalt members and some others, then it would be a question that should be answered.  So while it can be handwaved away, it isn't totally unreasonable to use the system for this IMO.

Alright, I'll bite. I just need to find and unpack my HERO books (which isn't too hard); we're moving this weekend and next weekend. Thankfully, they're packed in groups of four or five and wrapped in saran wrap instead of boxes (makes them into manageable bricks instead of heavy boxes), so I'll find 'em and do a build for you. I like seeing what I can do with the system and seeing if someone has finally stumped the mechanics.

-=Grim=-

EDIT: jkim beat me to an acceptable answer. That's what happens when you leave the reply browser open for a while before answering (I multitask my forum reading like the e-loser that I am).

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I ask this because I like HERO quite well, but it was one of the things that prompted me to re-examine how I approach all this goofiness we call gaming: "Just 'cause I CAN stat out a towel, do I HAVE to?"

Only if you want to. For some people who play HERO, they just want to. If I wanted such a character in my campaign, I'd stat it out just to do it.

I don't do it for game balance, because the points don't mean that. Rather it's just to verify a 'legal' build and out of interest sake.

But I don't stat out towels or cups even if I could. Only those things that are of significant campaign importance.


I don't have my book with me at the moment, or I'd give a simple version of the build for the character in question. It's really quite easy, and I'd almost bet one version of it already appears in the vehicle sourcebook they publish...

No one in his or her right mind would stat out a towel in HERO as anything other than a novelty.  I agree on the issue of point totals, though, and I TOTALLY get the "Gear Head" appeal.

BELIEVE ME.

If you have five PCs that will be part of the gestalt:

Summons for the uber character
Gesture+incantation   -1/2
Requires all five to be present  -1/2
Requires all five to have their powers -1/4 (They always seem to be losing their powers, thus their ability to empower the megaform).
Side Effect: Lockout: Characters "Goes Away" while the Summon Creature is present and only return when . -1/2
Side Effect: If summoned creature is damaged, the damage is passed on to the characters.   -1/2

Note the thing should have a triggered dispell so when it hits zero body, it "goes away" and the heroes home back.

All five contribute 1/5th the points to the Gestalt summoning. It is technically independent of them all. So when they get a new ranger, that new ranger buys into the gestalt.


Oh a towel is 1 point;  
5  change environment  wet to dry
-2 independent, -1 oaf, -1/2 no range.

The only people I make buy it are hitchikers. Everyone else can have one, but they have to be prepared for it to "go away" as the situation dictates. The hitchhikers always must have a towel, so they have to buy it for points.

Quote from: MoonHunterIf you have five PCs that will be part of the gestalt:

Summons for the uber character
Gesture+incantation   -1/2
Requires all five to be present  -1/2
Requires all five to have their powers -1/4 (They always seem to be losing their powers, thus their ability to empower the megaform).
Side Effect: Lockout: Characters "Goes Away" while the Summon Creature is present and only return when . -1/2
Side Effect: If summoned creature is damaged, the damage is passed on to the characters.   -1/2

Note the thing should have a triggered dispell so when it hits zero body, it "goes away" and the heroes home back.

All five contribute 1/5th the points to the Gestalt summoning. It is technically independent of them all.

This build is OK, with some issues that I would note.  

Normally you can't combine powers of different characters this way.  i.e. If I have a 10d6 Energy Blast and you have a 10d6 Energy Blast, we can't fire off a 20d6 Energy Blast by combining our power - and I think there's a fair logic to that.  That's why I said it calls for Aid.  You could do it as everyone doing Aid to one character's  Summon power.  

Disappearing as a side effect is tricky, since there are times when characters get use from disappearing.  However, if the character is a regular full-power character with this as an extra character, then I'd buy it as a side-effect.